Daughter and I mended our relationship.

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deadeye68
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Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by deadeye68 »

*MODERATOR NOTE*
This user is the confirmed troll bigbossomni aka pyrobotnik (and has since created another character as well), notorious for making up stories of extremists and mysterious health problems to discredit veganism. Everything he or she says should be assumed to be pure fiction.
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Hello everyone. I joined this forum due to a rift that began to form with my daughter who went vegan over a year ago. Around christmas we had a gathering of family and friends and that's where she decided to not speak to her brother or me for awhile. So I joined this forum to ask how vegans deal or interact with non vegan family members. After of us not speaking for a few months we decided to meet up yesterday.
So we went out to lunch and to my surprise she is no longer 100% vegan. She had some health issues and decided to incorporate fish and eggs into her diet a few times a week. We talked about what happened at the holiday gathering. She took my stance on having no opinion on veganism as me somehow scoffing it off as stupid. I told her that wasn't the case. I reassured her I respect her choices and will always care about her. I told her a joined this forum and showed her my interactions on here. She was surprised and happy I did. That I was willing to step into an unknown and come out learning a bit. She was proud I shrugged off the anger/hostility I got from a member or two on this forum. She said she had some issues similar to mine with her vegan friends.
I asked her about if her pursuit of full time "activism" was true. She said no she decided to live with her own personal choices and beliefs she says nobody should have to subscribe to her personal beliefs. She also find the way some people advocate off putting. So essentially it was a phase for her. But she is now more careful in her food choices and she has no issue with my hunting and finds it the better option than If I were to buy meat at the market.

Again thanks to those who were open and kind here. Learned a bit. I appreciate the advice. Thank you again.
Jamie in Chile
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by Jamie in Chile »

Thanks a lot for taking the trouble to update, a lot of people don't, just post their problems on forums and there are replies and you never hear from them again.The feedback is useful.

It must have been a difficult time for her to be so critical of non-vegans only to end up with health issues. It sounds like she dived in too deep, too fast in a way. Maybe that is why there was a period of no contact? The struggle to reconcile having criticised everyone else, then having health issues.

I personally waited some months before telling my close family I had gone (mostly) vegan and was in to my second year before I mentioned it to a wider group of contacts on facebook. Precisely because I thought it would be embarassing to be saying "meat is immoral" one week and then geting sick the next and wanted to avoid any chance of that happening. Of course, I was in my early days where I was still affected by the bias against veganism and didn't realize that healthy vegan diets are possible for almost everyone, and I didn't understand that getting fundamental, unsolvable health issues on a vegan diet is unlikely - provided you do the nutrition research and don't have specific allergies/conditons/illnessses. So, I think it's unlikely that she needs fish or eggs for health reasons. Of course, there is a small chance I'm wrong and it's easy for me to say that since I've never had health issues due to diet. But she probably just hasn't worked out how to do a vegan diet properly yet. Just depends how serious you are - are you willing to take the time to do nutrion reading, see a nutrionist etc. Health problems are common in the early stages of a vegan diet, but that's more of a transitional thing.

However, it's a reasonable compromise if she was having health issues. Over time, she might go back to veganism or at least vegetarianism. For example, if she learns the best vegan protein sources for her or learns that the Omega 3 in fish can be got from certain nuts and seeds. Even if she doesn't, she will at least have reduced her support for the factory farming operations in which animals have a poor life and suffer throughout their life, not just in the moment of death. I don't agree with hunting, but it isn't any worse than supermarket meat, in fact it's probably better.

Yes, vegans can be annoying. However, that is not in my opinion an argument against veganism, or in favour of eating meat. Imagine that black lives matter activists were annoying and preachy and purist, that wouldn't make racism or police violence against blacks OK. I'm not trying to compare racism with meat eating by the way, it is just an analogy. The point is we should judge veganism by the merits of the argument not by the attitude of its proponents.

Annoying vegans is a reason not to hang out with vegans, and perhaps a reason not to be very purist (e.g. avoiding toothpaste made with an animal ingredient or avoiding a chocolate chip cookie because the chocolate has milk). I think that's the type of lifestyle that would not be helpful for her, and, at least for now, she might want to avoid the type of vegans who insist on that level of purity.

She may have stopped in her advocacy because she no longer feels enough confidence to do so, given the health issues. The word "phase" was that your word or hers? I would suggest not to use that word when describing the situation with family or with her. Because, it may suggest you view her initial judgements as immature, and indicate you still don't take them fully seriously. (Ignore this comment if she herself was the first one to use the word "phase".) Time will tell if it really was a phase or not.

If she has fully understood and accepted the moral arguments for veganism, then it is not necessarily a phase. It is not like dying your hair or liking goth music or going on a low carb diet. It is more of a moral transformation. So, it is possible that she is not going through a phase but has just not yet reconciled the moral and health arguments, causing her to need to back off on the activism.

On the other hand, maybe you are right, maybe it was a phase. TIme will tell as I said. If she's jumped back to the fish and eggs upon having health issues, rather than see a nutrionist or ask for help on a vegan forum, then this may indicate she wasn't totally as sold on the ethical arguments as it first seemed. But difficult to say since I don't know her situation.

Best of luck to both of you. :)
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EquALLity
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by EquALLity »

Yay, I'm glad it worked out. I was thinking the same thing as Jaime: maybe she stopped talking to you because she was fixing the health issues.

Her issue with hunting also is something I questioned, as in hunting, the animals are killed relatively quickly and have a much better life up until the point at which they killed, relative to animals on factory farms. It sounds like she did a lot of reflection in the period she was gone.

Anyway, good luck!
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
deadeye68
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by deadeye68 »

Jamie in Chile- Thanks for the response. She has a pre-existing health issue prior to her jump to veganism over a year ago. I asked her if she did her research and whatnot and she did. She went to her dr when she started having issues the dr also gave her referrals to various dietitians and nutritionists and they all advised her she might want to introduce fish and eggs back into the mix. So i trust she wasn't "doing it wrong". And no you needn't worry about my view on veganism as a whole. Yes one or 2 members of this forum weren't very pleasant. But I think I'm not close minded enough to take those negative experiences and blanket all of the movement in a negative light. Perhaps they saw my opinion or lack thereof on veganism as an insult to them personally. That's on them I clearly stated I had no positive or negative thoughts on the movement. Perhaps those who were hostile should think about that. She changed her stance on activism because she wants to be more practical. Instead of trying to abolish meat in general she simply wants to show people the more ethical ways to getting meat ( hunting, free range, cage free ect). She wants some factory farm practices to change. She no longer feels everyone must subscribe to her personal beliefs. And yes she used the word phase..not me. But I'm just happy to have my kid back.
deadeye68
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by deadeye68 »

equallity- Thanks for the response. You've been very welcoming so thank you.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by PsYcHo »

Glad to hear you guys got it patched up.

Feel free to hang around and discuss other topics with us if you'd like. It's nice to have friendly people on a forum, especially those looking to learn things.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
deadeye68
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by deadeye68 »

If I'm not banned yes I'd like to discuss about the mass shooting subject in the other forum
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PsYcHo
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by PsYcHo »

deadeye68 wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:19 pm If I'm not banned yes I'd like to discuss about the mass shooting subject in the other forum

It's hard to get banned on this forum, unless you repeatedly abuse the rules, and even then you will be given warnings. Everyone on this forum has a different "style" of debating, and in serious discussions some members are very....pointed in their responses. (Myself included at times, depending on the topic) And if you are new to debate forums, it can be a little overwhelming arguing points with people who are more experienced at it.

You can still post so you aren't banned, and as that is my topic (Mass shootings), I'd love to have another person join in.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
Jamie in Chile
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by Jamie in Chile »

OK, then if she said it, perhaps it was a phase after all.

I think if you go to doctors (especially) and nutritionists (to a lesser extent) they do tend to reccomend animal product based solution perhaps slightly more than they should, because it is what they were taught years ago, and it conforms to society's current expectations. A doctor who reccomends a vegan diet and then gets an ill patient is more likely to land in trouble than a doctor who reccomends meat/fish in the diet and gets an ill patient, because he stuck to the mainstream and conformed to society's slight bias against veganism.

I guess she is going to stick to the professional reccomendations that she got, which is fair enough.

But you know, I've had this same conversation with 2 doctors that reccomended me to eat fish. My reply to them was that the only reason to eat fish that I know of is Omega 3, and that Omega 3 can be got from the walnuts and chia seeds that I eat, so does that leave any reason left for eating fish? They both conceded the argument at this point. I haven't found anyone to give me a real reason for eating fish. (The argument that sufficient Omega 3 can be got from nuts/seeds rather than fish is actually debatable and a bit complex, but is probably true if you know what you are doing.)

By the way, free range and cage free labels, at least from large operations sold in supermarkets, is basically bullshit. The likes of Michael Pollan, non-vegetarian food writer, have confirmed this, as has the book from Jonathan Safran-Foer and numerous other sources. There is no doubt that the suffering remains intense, the spaces remain tiny, and common practices remain such as killing all the male chicks as soon as they are born are still the same. The only difference with free range is often just a space to access the outdoors, which sometimes remains closed or the chickens don't even realise it's there. The statements "free range" and "cage free" will technically be true but the implication of a a substantially better life for the chickens is false.

The way to eat more ethical eggs is to go to a small operation, ideally someone's backyard chickens or a small family farm where you can visit and see what really goes on.
Jamie in Chile
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Re: Daughter and I mended our relationship.

Post by Jamie in Chile »

By the way deadeye68, what I've noticed about this forum is that people can come on and make controversional arguments, not bother to suger coat them, say things that you probably shouldn't say at a polite dinner party but isn't actually wrong in any way but against convention or political correctness. And no-one seems to get upset or annoyed like usually happens. I like that because you can have real open minded debate. I think it's a strong point about the forum.

But, if you want to participate here, you need to be prepared for some robust opinions and not get offended.

I mean just look at some recent threads.

Is God incompetent or competent?
Questions about race, (featuring the question How come more blacks tend to have poorer education and less income than most white people?)
Is Taxation Theft?
Sucide Victims Are Cowards?
The Fucked Up Concept of Land Ownership
Why Are Progressives so Eager to Defend Islam
Is Competition Harmful to Children

I mean if someone read those threads and thought. Hm my cousin/uncle is religious/commited suicide and I find that offensive and got angry...then this probably isn't the forum for them.
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