Daughter and I mended our relationship.

[EquALLity]

inator - I think this is an interesting discussion, but I think we should create a new topic to discuss it, given that this topic is specifically about deadeye's family relationship. That is, if you want to keep discussing it.

[Jamie in Chile]

It's a bit of a grey area, but it seems to be that the comment by Brimstone salad below was started this:

but if you can't have a reasonable discussion about differences of opinion with a close family member that (to me) indicates a kind of shallow relationship, or not much of a bond if you're worried disagreement will harm the relationship.

That comment was probably perceived by Deadeye, at least in part, to be a reference to his relationship with his daughter.

And I think Psycho's don't give two shits post is aggressive. I think Brimstone salad has been the more argumentative of the two, and Deadeye has ust been trying to politely close down the discussion.

I don't think any of this is effective advocacy.

Advocacy for veganism is not just about giving out leaflets or going on a march. If someone knows you are vegan, then everything you do wrong is bad advocacy for veganism. Anything from being rude to not dressing smartly makes veganism look bad and therefore is a failed opportunity to decrease animal suffering. Incredibly harsh and totally unfair burden to bear, but true. Remember, people are looking for any excuse to eat meat. "I spoke to a vegan once and she was rude to me" or "my cousin was a vegan and he got ill" or is implicitly used by people as an excuse to eat meat for the rest of someone's life!

Maybe someone watching this thread is going to eat more meat as a result because they saw vegans being rude - or thought you were being rude. That could be Deadeye, his daughter who might be reading the thread, or others that are lurking on here. Remember, it's a sensitive issue. It's hard to question someone's morality at the best of times without seeming rude. And vegans are (or perceive to be) implicitly questioning someone's morality in the eyes of others, whether they intend to or not! So you will seem ruder than you really are to others if they are meat eaters.

I think we should be constantly on the alert for how to be effective advocates for animals, rather than trying to be right.

[brimstoneSalad]

I worry much more about something that's going to be more visible like an advert or flier. It is important to be able to discuss things.
If people are looking for reasons not to go vegan and they have to look this hard, I think they can find much worse.
I think he was just offended because he took it personally. I apologized to him and he threw it back in my face, so I don't think this is a person who was ever going to be civil for long, even if you walk on eggshells around him (like Isaac, you just can't placate narcissists).

It's a bit of a grey area, but it seems to be that the comment by Brimstone salad below was started this:

but if you can't have a reasonable discussion about differences of opinion with a close family member that (to me) indicates a kind of shallow relationship, or not much of a bond if you're worried disagreement will harm the relationship.

Just saying how it feels to me; that doesn't mean it is the intent there. Some people feel that way, and others (as PsYcHo indicated) have the cultural inclination that you do anything in your power to avoid hurt feelings, not because you're worried about harming the relationship but because you don't want to hurt feelings.

I can see his perspective.

Jamie, can you check out/add to the wiki article? I think you would do a better job than I can of representing this issue as gently as possible, since it is a sensitive issue. The article will be much more visible than this thread.
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Disowning_Nonvegans

[Lay Vegan]

There are definitely times for it, but if you can't have a reasonable discussion about differences of opinion with a close family member that (to me) indicates a kind of shallow relationship, or not much of a bond if you're worried disagreement will harm the relationship.

I also agree that there's a big difference between considered neutrality (which IS an opinion) and not having an opinion.

Well said. I'm glad you acknowledged the subtle distinction between neutrality and apathy.

Someone who remains neutral about veganism may very well have examined the arguments for and against it. They may have considered some of veganism's pros and cons, but haven't found either side's arguments compelling enough to make a hard decision. At the very least, this implies some level of honesty.

I might also add that veganism is not some random obscure religious faith, or anything like that. All of the problems vegans frequently contend with; animal suffering and environmental degradation, etc. are pressing issues, and we can each do our part and be better. Even if it is small as cutting back on meat consumption. I think veganism is an issue that is very difficult to be truly neutral on (without being dishonest) but I won't open that can of worms in this thread.

Apathy on the other hand can come across as dishonest, close minded, and even patronizing. If someone is being apathetic/indifferent about veganism, I interpret this to mean they don't even think animal suffering is an important enough topic to form an opinion on. I might think this person is either too selfish to care about issues that don't personally affect her, or she's just being dishonest to avoid cognitive dissonance.


Most people want the easy way out. It requires a lot of work and energy engaging openly with others we disagree with. It's easy to be dishonest and not to care about other people's values enough to even form an opinion. Or even to outright dismiss their values, but this won't help to solve any problems or facilitate meaningful discussion.

But you can never go wrong with ideological support (although they may feel frustrated that you agree but don't change your behavior, that's another issue).

Bingo. This may have been what the OP's daughter wanted all along. It is likely that she wanted her father to acknowledge and support her values, not merely regard them. Vocalizing your recognition of the good the other person is doing to reduce animal harm and environmental degradation indicates that you take them seriously, even if you aren't personally compelled to go vegan.

[Lay Vegan]

deadeye68,

I'm glad you've mended your relationship with your daughter. We're happy to have you here on the forum, and I hope you were able to gain some new insight on the matter from us.

I hope you continue to acknowledge and support your daughter's values moving forward. I too am a vegan with with non vegan parents. It's possible that all she wants is for you to see and appreciate the good she does, and to acknowledge the harm you do. Even if you don't personally want to go vegan or vegetarian, I'd let her know that you think veganism is a good thing and that you support her for it.

[brimstoneSalad]

...

Very well said.

Do you think you could add that to the Wiki?
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Disowning_Nonvegans

I'm hoping that page will serve as a good resource for both sides dealing with this issue in the future.

[inator]

inator - I think this is an interesting discussion, but I think we should create a new topic to discuss it, given that this topic is specifically about deadeye's family relationship. That is, if you want to keep discussing it.

I think it's a good idea to take the debate elsewhere. Feel free to respond to my last comment in another thread if you'd like, and we'll take it from there.

[Jebus]

Maybe someone watching this thread is going to eat more meat as a result because they saw vegans being rude - or thought you were being rude.

It's possible, but isn't it also possible that someone is turned off by veganism because they don't want to be part of a bullied group? Isn't it also possible that people find uncontroversial posts boring and don't bother to finish reading the thread which may contain good points about veganism?

Most vegans seem to believe that a friendly approach is the most effective way of promoting veganism and I agree that this is the best approach when speaking to someone person to person for the first time. However, I am not convinced that a less aggressive approach is the most effective in the following situations:

With people with whom one has already unsuccessfully tried the friendly approach several times.

With people who generally don't listen.

During online forum debates.

While delivering a monologue or answering questions in a Q/A setting (Gary Yourofsky may be the most successful person in history in converting carnists to vegans and he never sugar coated the message).

[Jamie in Chile]

I am a bit too busy for further help with the wiki at the moment and then will probably be the case until at least June. Sorry.

I am trying to dip into forums for just a few minutes a day if possible..although occassionally I get carried away...

[deadeye68]

i'm done mr. "philosophical" vegan is anything but that. My daughter is telling her vegan friend to avoid this echo chamber. Because that is all she sees and I am starting to agree with her. So enjoy that brimstone has hurt the message he wishes to convey.