My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:59 pm
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 am If you are curious as to what my thoughts on veganism are here they are. I have none it's as simple as that. If someone wants to be vegan thats fine if someone doesn't want to be vegan thats also fine. That is where my thoughts begin and end on the subject.
Have you engaged openly and honestly with your daughter about veganism? Or is more of a “don’t ask don’t tell” kind of thing?

It’s good to hear you have no problem with her being vegan, but being so apathetic about animal suffering isn’t exactly the best attitude to have for serious discussion with a vegan.

Have you made any effort at all to understand her ethical viewpoint? For example, I had my parents read a few books on the topic, and afterward they fully understand and respect my position. They don’t just undertsand that I’m a vegan, they understand WHY I’m a vegan, and they respect my decision.
Very well said. This is from my perspective where the issue almost certainly begins and ends: it's his patronizing indifference and intellectual disrespect in refusing to engage with the issue that's causing the most friction.

It's great that you were able to resolve that issue with your parents!
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EquALLity
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by EquALLity »

brimstoneSalad wrote:In those scenarios, those people weren't necessarily against other people paying their taxes, they were just personally opposed to paying taxes, and either willing or unwilling to discuss their reasons and consider other views.
Yes. However, if you are not against veganism, you wouldn't have a similar reaction to the person in scenario A, because you wouldn't brush it off as a non-important issue.
He is certainly against going vegan personally -- as in, he is uninterested/doesn't want to do it. He just may not be against his daughter being vegan.
I don't think not wanting to go vegan personally makes you against veganism.
I have experience with this situation from her perspective, so does EquALLity, and Lay Vegan. If you're not interested in understanding the various possibilities of what she may be feeling based on the actual experience of vegans who have been there, then that's precisely the problem: sorry, but as I see it, it's your closed minded attitude that is driving your daughter away.
I don't really have that similar an experience; it's similar in that there was a conflict with me and family members due to veganism, but the context isn't the same. I tried my best to give helpful advice anyway, and I think he was receptive to it... I am not sure why you think he is closed minded?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

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EquALLity wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:42 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:In those scenarios, those people weren't necessarily against other people paying their taxes, they were just personally opposed to paying taxes, and either willing or unwilling to discuss their reasons and consider other views.
Yes. However, if you are not against veganism, you wouldn't have a similar reaction to the person in scenario A, because you wouldn't brush it off as a non-important issue.
If you had a nihilistic belief, where it didn't matter one way or another, then you could technically not be against it for others, but still brush it off as unimportant.
I feel like this is what the OP is doing.
EquALLity wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:42 pm
He is certainly against going vegan personally -- as in, he is uninterested/doesn't want to do it. He just may not be against his daughter being vegan.
I don't think not wanting to go vegan personally makes you against veganism.
What is "against" veganism? This seems to conflict with the above.

He says he isn't, but he considers it to be without any positive (or negative) value. He's apathetic to it. He doesn't think it has any negative or positive moral value. But he wants to eat meat, so he is against going vegan personally because it opposes his own dietary interests. He just isn't against it for others if they want to do it.

If he wasn't against going vegan personally, and his daughter just asked him to, then he'd do it because it didn't make a difference to him.
From true and complete indifference it's very easy to convince people to do or not do something. Assuming his daughter tried to get him to go vegan and he did not, then he is at least against himself going vegan (not necessarily for moral reasons).
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EquALLity
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

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brimstoneSalad wrote:If you had a nihilistic belief, where it didn't matter one way or another, then you could technically not be against it for others, but still brush it off as unimportant.
I feel like this is what the OP is doing.
I don't think you need to actively support veganism to not brush it off as unimportant. Just because this person doesn't have an opinion on veganism doesn't mean he is necessarily being patronizing.
What is "against" veganism? This seems to conflict with the above.

He says he isn't, but he considers it to be without any positive (or negative) value. He's apathetic to it. He doesn't think it has any negative or positive moral value. But he wants to eat meat, so he is against going vegan personally because it opposes his own dietary interests. He just isn't against it for others if they want to do it.

If he wasn't against going vegan personally, and his daughter just asked him to, then he'd do it because it didn't make a difference to him.
From true and complete indifference it's very easy to convince people to do or not do something. Assuming his daughter tried to get him to go vegan and he did not, then he is at least against himself going vegan (not necessarily for moral reasons).
"Against" veganism means, in my eyes, that you disagree with veganism as a practice in general, such as believing it is stupid. The author has stated he isn't against vegansim.
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by deadeye68 »

brimstone- More assumptions of what my daughter thinks. Just because she is vegan doesn't mean she has the exact same thoughts as you towards non vegans or on veganism in general. Your posts come off somewhat patronizing towards me. I have no negative or positive views on veganism. I respect her choice and I understand why she would choose to become vegan. I simply wanted to see how some vegans deal with non vegan family members. Don't assume to know anything about my relationship with her when I've only given you a sliver of 20 years of raising my child. She isn't the type to want me to join her in her newfound ideals. But ok you have your presumptions about me and my daughter thats fine I guess. Even though they are incorrect. Have a good day.

Everyone else- Thank you for sharing and the advice. I'm just going to give her some time and When I do speak to her again I will reassure her I will always care and respect her choices. Thank you all again.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

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EquALLity wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:55 pm"Against" veganism means, in my eyes, that you disagree with veganism as a practice in general, such as believing it is stupid. The author has stated he isn't against vegansim.
You can be against a specific application of something without being against it generally. He's not against it generally, I believe him when he says that, but he's certainly against going vegan himself otherwise he would have done it the moment his daughter complained because he would have no reason not to.
EquALLity wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:55 pm I don't think you need to actively support veganism to not brush it off as unimportant.
It's possible to say "This is an important topic of conversation, let's talk about it and figure out if veganism is good or not" without having arrived at a conclusion yet. That's not what he's doing, though. He doesn't seem to care to talk about it at all, he's already come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter one way or another, even that it couldn't possibly matter one way or another.

Once you've come to that conclusion, you are absolutely brushing it off as unimportant.

I'll quote him expressing one of the most definitively dismissive statements of veganism I've read in a while:
If someone wants to be vegan thats fine if someone doesn't want to be vegan thats also fine. That is where my thoughts begin and end on the subject.
EquALLity wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:55 pmJust because this person doesn't have an opinion on veganism doesn't mean he is necessarily being patronizing.
If you don't have an opinion on it, then you either know nothing about it and have never been encouraged to think about it (which isn't possible unless he's been plugging his ears while his daughter has been around), or you are of the opinion that it's not important enough to think about and form an opinion on.

In this context, I think his behavior fits the definitions of patronizing very well. Many definitions even mention "unimportant"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/patronizing

It's particularly true of superficial kindness, while one's true feelings is that something is entirely unimportant.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

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deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 pm brimstone- More assumptions of what my daughter thinks.
Again, not assuming anything. :roll:
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 pmJust because she is vegan doesn't mean she has the exact same thoughts as you towards non vegans or on veganism in general.
No, the fact that she's interested in full time activism and has stopped talking to you so quickly suggests that her feelings are stronger than mine or most vegans in general. This is not an assumption, it's a statement of empirical probability based on induction from other cases and what we know of human psychology. She is serious about this, and you don't get that. It has nothing to do with "20 years" raising your daughter; that's immaterial to the facts at hand.

People change. You're ignoring the evidence here.
Maybe your faith based position happens to be right here and it really is just about the green beans (which if it is, makes her seem unreasonable), or whatever you think it's about, and she really doesn't want you to go vegan or listen to and agree with her arguments, but that's not likely.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 pmYour posts come off somewhat patronizing towards me.
That's not what patronizing means. I'm making no pretenses of humoring your delusions.
You are biased: you want to believe one thing, but it goes against the available evidence. I know you do not want to believe that your daughter has changed in her core beliefs, OR that you may have been doing something wrong.

What multiple vegans here have now said is that your dismissive attitude may be part of the problem.
We have one example of resolving that improving a relationship (Lay Vegan), and one case where a failure to resolve that caused problems in a relationship.

Then we have EquALLity's case, which is a bit different.

There's no way to know exactly what your daughter is feeling, but it would be wise to consider the possibility that one of these things is the issue.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 pmI have no negative or positive views on veganism.
I know, you've said so, and I've even been quoting you.
That's probably the problem (from my perspective); you don't care at all about something your daughter cares about deeply and is trying to share her views on with you.
You don't even care enough to form an opinion on it. That's incredibly disrespectful and patronizing.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 pmI respect her choice and I understand why she would choose to become vegan.
Why would she choose to become vegan?

You talked earlier about her being very sensitive; again, you have a very patronizing perspective on this.
Do you think all of her reasons are entirely irrational and emotional? That they have no merit whatsoever?

Even people who do not go vegan can look positively on the change, and admire it. Much like we might admire somebody who goes to a developing country to do humanitarian work even if we do not do it.

You are capable of viewing veganism positively and being happy she went vegan and being proud of her for doing it. You choose dismissive, patronizing, indifference instead.

Do I know 100% that this is the problem your daughter has? No. But it is a very strong possibility, and if not the entire problem is probably a large part of it.
We know that resolving this issue helps repair and improve other relationships, but you're ignoring that information. You're not even willing to try.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 pmDon't assume to know anything about my relationship with her when I've only given you a sliver of 20 years of raising my child. She isn't the type to want me to join her in her newfound ideals. But ok you have your presumptions about me and my daughter thats fine I guess. Even though they are incorrect. Have a good day.
See, there goes that closed mindedness again. You just know I'm wrong without even considering the possibility that you've been coming across as patronizing, and may have inadvertently done the same to her.

PEOPLE CHANGE. You said you hunted with her as a child. She is probably not the same person now as she was. And if she is seriously interested in full time activism, she DOES want to change the world, she wants the world to go vegan and for hunting and animal agriculture to end, and she would like if you'd stop doing those things too. She would not have complained about you being a carnist if she didn't want you to change your ways. People who are only personally vegan and who are indifferent to others going vegan do not behave in these ways.

You even said this in the first post (now you're contradicting yourself):
deadeye68 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:08 amBut only in the last 5 or 6 months has she shown dissent towards us for not following suit into her changes.
She probably wants the world to go vegan, and that includes her family. Particularly, her family, whom she loves. You're making the assumption that she isn't the type to want you to join her in her newfound ideals, and therefore this couldn't be it, but this goes against every other case I've ever seen for serious activists. Serious vegan activists are not generally moral nihilists with a "to each his or her own" attitude who don't care what others do; they're trying to influence others, that's what activism is. What do you think vegan activism consists of?

I don't think you have to change your diet to repair your relationship with your daughter, but if you don't change your attitude it's less likely that you'll improve the relationship any time soon. You'll have to gamble on her giving up or getting jaded, and some activists are life-long.
If you're willing to take that risk, perhaps up to a 30% chance of losing your daughter (maybe permanently) due to your behavior, then maybe you don't care as much about the relationship as I had assumed -- that's an assumption I did make, that you'd be willing to be open minded that you may have done something wrong if it means better odds at fixing the damage. I was wrong. Good luck with your gamble.
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by deadeye68 »

brimstone- again making more claims to know anything about my daughter and her feelings. Guess what she just called me and wishes to see me tomorrow. So all of what you claim to know how she feels is a moot point. You seem to have a high opinion of yourself and perhaps you are personally offended that I have no positive or negative thoughts on veganism? Thats how you certainly seem to come off. I don't think I'm the one coming off as close minded here. You sure seem to make long winded comments when you could easily form your opinions of me and my daughter in a few sentences. You probably are younger than me so let me share some wisdom. If you don't have anything nice to say perhaps say nothing at all. And you walk through life meeting all sorts of people you may not agree with. You don't need to agree with them, you don't even need to really respect them but, you should at least feint tolerance. When I meet her tomorrow I will still happily share our interaction because what people have been saying to me has not fallen of deaf ears.

Again thank you all. I've learned a bit I think and most of you were very understanding. Everyone have a good and safe evening.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmGuess what she just called me and wishes to see me tomorrow.
That's good to hear, I hope it goes well. It could only help to tell her you think her going vegan is a good thing for the world and you're proud of her, not merely indifferent.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmSo all of what you claim to know how she feels is a moot point.
Unless you can see the future, it hardly is.
I didn't claim to know this with certainty; see my comments peppered with "ifs" and "probablys" based on the relevant information.
Also note how I said this was based on her mindset being even remotely like mine and other activists.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmYou seem to have a high opinion of yourself and perhaps you are personally offended that I have no positive or negative thoughts on veganism?
No, but parents who intellectually disrespect their children because they think they can't possibly have anything to learn from them is a big pet peeve.
Children are often more right than their parents on moral issues because they aren't as weighed down with cultural baggage, and grew up in a more progressive context than the last generation.

From my perspective, based on the things you've said in this thread, you've conveyed to her that something she is devoting her life to is of NO VALUE to you.

Supporting and respecting her means affirming the value of her beliefs and what she's devoting her life to. Not just as valuable to her, but intrinsically valuable. It means saying it's a good thing that she's gone vegan and is helping animals and the environment. It means saying you're proud of her for it, specifically.

Just saying you support her unconditionally in doing whatever she wants isn't the same. Unconditional support and pride isn't very meaningful.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmYou sure seem to make long winded comments when you could easily form your opinions of me and my daughter in a few sentences.
My earlier comments were shorter, and you drastically misunderstood them.
I'm trying to be extremely clear. Sorry if they are long for you.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmYou probably are younger than me so let me share some wisdom. If you don't have anything nice to say perhaps say nothing at all.
:lol: Really? Is that what you're looking for when you ask for advice?

People to patronize you and just tell you whatever you want to hear, that you're the best dad ever and you're doing everything right, don't worry just love her and everything will work out in the end?

You want that kind of Hallmark channel bullshit response rather than real advice based on our personal experiences and difficulties with relationships?

The truth isn't always easy to hear. There are vegans who break contact with parents due to friction (which goes both ways) and never re-establish it.
You've absolutely NOT been doing everything you could, and there was a glaring omission in your support of her: valuing and affirming what she wants to devote her life to, and expressing explicit pride in her specific choices and changes.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmAnd you walk through life meeting all sorts of people you may not agree with. You don't need to agree with them, you don't even need to really respect them but, you should at least feint tolerance.
I see, so your policy is to lie to people so that they like you?
I don't do that. I'm tolerant, but I will voice disagreement.

I did respect you, and that respect took the form of brutal honesty. I was trying to help you do the most you could possibly do to maximize the chances of this relationship working. You didn't like it, you reacted defensively. I get it. Sometimes it's hard to hear that you may have done something wrong or failed in some way.

It's an easy fix if I'm right.

I don't know what she'll say to you tomorrow... but you don't really know either.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pmWhen I meet her tomorrow I will still happily share our interaction because what people have been saying to me has not fallen of deaf ears.
You're welcome to, but it might make her uncomfortable to know you've been discussing your relationship online. I would be very interested in hearing her perspective, though.

I would err on the side of complete support & tell her that you agree that veganism is a good thing for the world, the environment, animal welfare, and that you're proud of her for going vegan and pursuing activism.

I would treat this the same way as if she were going to Africa to save thousands of lives from malnutrition. Not something you'll do, but something you regard as good and value as a positive contribution to the world.

It's not like she converted to some weird religion; climate change and the human suffering that results, and animal suffering in itself are not imaginary problems. It's not a hard thing to see positively.
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by deadeye68 »

brimestone- You dont seem like a happy or pleasant person. I think our interaction ends here. Again you continue to make claims on how she will feel about this or that. Everyone else has been great. Seems you are at an crossroad with me. You don't seem to like me and thats fine I came here for some opinions. Not to have my character and ability to parent attacked. I think me and you are done here. Again have a good day. I'll update with a post if I am not banned.
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