My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:45 pmI'll update with a post if I am not banned.
Thanks, I'm sure we all hope it goes well. And I hope it really is as simple as a misunderstanding.
You're not going to be banned for something like this... that's not the kind of place this is.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:45 pmAgain you continue to make claims on how she will feel about this or that.
Saying that it couldn't hurt to be more supportive? That I would err on the side of doing that, and IF I'm right it's an easy fix?
Saying literally "I don't know what she'll say to you tomorrow..."?

I'm not making certain claims here, I've been explicitly talking about statistics and in terms of the possibilities I'm outlining I'm going based on my experiences and those of some of the people I've known and talked to who have had similar trouble with their parents about all kinds of things where the root is a fundamental disconnect like this.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:45 pm Everyone else has been great. Seems you are at an crossroad with me. You don't seem to like me and thats fine I came here for some opinions.
Whether I like you or not is immaterial.
I gave you opinions. You didn't like them.
deadeye68 wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:45 pmNot to have my character and ability to parent attacked.
Telling you what you might have done wrong is the most useful advice possible.

We could talk at length about what your daughter has done wrong, but you aren't her and that's not really useful.
We could also speculate on the chances of this resolving itself, which might make you feel better but again isn't very useful.

What is useful is what you can DO differently to help increase the chances of this story having a happy ending.

I'm not just attacking you, I'm trying to help you understand what you could do differently.
If you don't see the value in that, then you don't understand what constructive criticism is or the concept of what good advice looks like.

If you can't handle a bit of constructive criticism, don't ask for advice or opinions on such issues.

For my part, I can not apologize for what I've said or the content of my criticism, but if you feel like my language was too harsh for you to receive the criticism I apologize for that.
deadeye68
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by deadeye68 »

brimstone- again you really didn't need to respond. It has been made apparent you are a mod on this forum so perhaps the power of this has gone to your head. You are coming off as a very rude person. You could of gone about this many ways, But you are young so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. But trust me arrogance gets you nowhere kid. I hope you grow out of your anger if not I truly feel sorry for you. Living as if you are always right or better than others seems like a lonely life.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Not sure what your problem is deadeye, did you even read my post?
Jamie in Chile
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by Jamie in Chile »

brimstoneSalad, in my opinion it would be best at this point to respect deadeye's wish not to engage. Maybe your way of thinking is just different to deadeye's. In a case like this, a little bit of emotion or irritation between the two of you may hinder the ability to have a good discussion anyway. deadeye may start to feel the forum isn't worth the stress, and discontinue the conversation with everyone else. (not making an assumption here, just saying it's a possibility!)

That's not to say that you're at fault in any way, that your arguments are worse, or anything like that. It's just that it's deadeye's thread and issue so it makes more sense for you to step aside than deadeye.
Jamie in Chile
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by Jamie in Chile »

To reply to the original post, first of all I think you've come to the right forum. Other vegan forums are often a haven for vegans, and they don't like meat eaters going on there - sometimes being veg is even a condition of membership. While non-vegan forums will not really understand your daughter's perspective and be too dismissive of her viewpoints.

I really feel for you. It must be terrible to be looking at the possibility of a damaged or even ending relationship with your own daughter.

I think your daughter may possibly be showing some immaturity (natural for a person at that age so I hope you don't mind me saying it) and forgetting that she herself has not been vegan for very long. She also needs to ask herself whether arguing with someone for cooking beans on the same pan, and saying what was said, is effective in making vegans look good, or might it make vegans look bad? However it may not be helpful to say that to her, but I hope she can realize it herself.

But you also need to understand that when you become vegan....it is like you see the world differently. Everything seems different and it's hard to respect people killing animals just for food...even though you yourself did it before! You have to clearly understand that veganism is not really a lifestyle choice. It's a moral position and when someone says you are doing something morally dubious in my view the better response is to debate it rather than dismiss it or just say you respect my viewpoint and I'll respect yours. If you disagree with that then fair enough. Also, I realise this point has been made by others. I am deliberately repeating it anyway to underline that this is all very important.

She may calm down and become more stable in the future as she gets older, but it''s also possible that she will limited in her ability to form very close relationships with non-vegans long term. This is a common vegan position but it depends on the person. Emotionally, I am quite hopefully she will calm down whether in days, months or years. But if you don't ever become vegan or vegetarianism, or at least reduceatarian, or at least willing to discuss it, then that may leave a barrier between you. However, this ought to at most limit the relationship, not end it.

It's also possible that she feels some guilt about her past actions, and is projecting onto others. I am completely guessing here, and not assuming, but I am just saying it is one possibility.

She needs some time to stew, which I think you understand already. If she doesn't return your calls at certain points I suggest you back off a little bit, and try a call or a message a week or a month later. Be alert to her needs and whether or not she has any other issues in her life that need attention and make her emotional. This is all of course entirely unfair that you need to take the initiative when she's the one not returning your calls already, but perhaps you could take the iniatiative in strengthening the relationship, as the more mature one of the two.

At some point in the future, I suggest you find a way to discuss about the ethics of eating animals and try and find a way to respect each other's point of view. This might be via discussion, or ask her to watch a movie together or lend you a book and then discuss it. However, do this when the relationship is more stable and non-emotional. Hopefully if you share some viewpoints you may even find some common ground or at least be more respectful of each other's views.

You need to get into a serious discussion I think. Just not talking about the issue is not a solution (to her). If you can both talk to each other politely and non emotionally about your opinions about the ethics of eating meat perhaps you can even find some common ground. However, try to avoid the more lengthy discussion when the relationship in general is not in a good place. But...I'm wondering if it needs to happen at some point. But perhaps you know best.

One tip - when she makes pro vegan/ anti meat arguments don't get defensive and come up with the first response you can think of. If you think about it later and reply a different day you will come up with a better answer than if you quickly try to answer. Remember, she has probably been reading various websites or books about the ethics of eating meat and so has an advantage. You can't respond in 5 seconds to what she has spent hours reading up on and it would be unfair to expect you to do so. Do some research online and respond to her the next time you see her.

I hope that is useful and I'm sorry if it isn't. As always with forum advice, some of it won't be relevant to you and you'll know best to pick and choose which since you know more about your daughter and your situation. Good luck! I hope the relationship gets sorted!

How did it go yesterday?
deadeye68
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by deadeye68 »

Thanks for the reply. It went well. She had a change of heart about a few things. I might make a post about it but Im not so sure due to the attitude of some people in this forum.
Jamie in Chile
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by Jamie in Chile »

Maybe I should have waited to see your other post since not sure how relevant my advice is now. Because she's backed off on the strict vegan purism, there is less of a large gap between your viewpoints making them more reconcilable. I think this could already be a good moment for some lengthy ethical discussions, it may be easier to find common ground than I thought.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: My daughter is disowning everyone who isn't vegan.

Post by brimstoneSalad »

For anybody following this, here's the new thread: Daughter and I mended our relationship.
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3850

Jamie in Chile wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:39 pm That's not to say that you're at fault in any way, that your arguments are worse, or anything like that. It's just that it's deadeye's thread and issue so it makes more sense for you to step aside than deadeye.
Threads define topic/off-topic distinction, and in that the OP has some manner of authority, but that's pretty much the extent of it. Anybody is welcome to reply in any thread provided those replies are topical (and even if they aren't, it just may be necessary to split it).

I commented on this at more length in the new thread, but I don't think we want to set any kind of "safe space" precedent here, it could kill discussion.

I'm going to go ahead and lock this one, because the issue is resolved and I assume discussion will carry on in the new thread on that (tempted to merge the threads, but this works too). If anybody thinks this one should stay open let me know.
Locked