carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pm
Then you'd need to explain the contradictory guidelines where by-products are "non-vegan" but organic produce is vegan.
I already explained it, I said people aren't that smart about pseudoscience and organic is hard to fight (may not be worth the effort).
I didn't say I liked it or agreed with it. I have no burden to
defend that contradiction, if that's what you mean by "explain". It's just not a priority.
I would defend it in respect to products like tempeh, and I did. I would rather it not be organic, but the harm from it being organic is less than the good it does.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmHow can it be both? That seems to be conceptually incoherent as a heuristic is by definition a process.
Because it has multiple definitions/a spectrum of definition.
Even the vegan society outlines two: the philosophy, and vegan in dietary terms.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmSo then what does it mean to be a better person? To "reduce harm"? By how much exactly and how would you measure it?
"How much exactly?"
How much heavier exactly does somebody have to be to be a heavier person?
Being a better person can be achieved by any measure of improvement.
Somebody could get away with a slug's pace of improvement and technically be on that trajectory.
One person improving faster than another may indicate the person being a better person more motivated to do good or reduce harm, or it may be a product of circumstance.
It's easier to measure consequence of action than to figure out all of that and the details of circumstance.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmClaiming that veganism is a heuristic opens many questions, heuristics can be evaluated. So if someone is going to uphold veganism as anything other than an arbitrary standard they will have to demonstrate that it is, as a heuristic, valuable and effective compared to others. And this would require that one be very clear about the goal trying to be achieved.
Yes, which is why I suggested starting a thread on the topic.
Is veganism the best heuristic? I don't know.
Reducetarianism, ostroveganism, freeganism, vegetarianism, flexitarianism, pescetarianism, one step, etc.
There are many competing heuristics that inform consumer and dietary behavior. On an individual level, more restriction of bad products/greater harm reduction is better as long as the person has the will power to sustain it, but on a societal level to affect maximal change that's not so clear.
Starting with heuristics that recommend less change may be more broadly accepted and as such do more faster, and even lead to better overall outcomes (and even people adopting more strict heuristics sooner).
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmYes, the official vegan society definition does but that is a post-hoc definition that doesn't seem to be actually used.
It's used among vegans quite a bit.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmAfter all, what is and isn't "practicable and possible" is contextual yet veganism in practice is rigid. Even that vegan society's "vegan certified" program is based on a very rigid understanding of what is and isn't vegan.
Because you can't certify something vegan or not by any other standard; each person can't see something different on packaging to know if it's vegan for him or her based on the individual's unique circumstances at the time.
Certification is based strictly on dietary terms as outlined in the latter part of the definition.
But that doesn't mean somebody isn't vegan if he or she consumes something that isn't strictly vegan in those terms.
It's like Jewish and Kosher. People can still be Jewish if they eat something non-kosher, and in fact
anything is "kosher" (in terms of permitted by the law) if it's necessary to save a life (like somebody is starving).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh
Is Kosher meaningless because it has exceptions? Or do the "kosher" labels on food mean it has no exceptions for life and death scenarios and you're not Jewish anymore if you consume something non-kosher to save your life or save a child from drowning on the Sabbath or any other violation of the otherwise rigid Torah?
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmPersonally I rarely see products boldly claim to be "vegan", instead its listed on the back or in small type on the front as to not call attention to it.
Seems to be clearly visible to me, and you are seeing it. They're not trying to
hide it.
Obviously it's going to be small so as not to take up a bunch of space, just like kosher is on products with the exception of "kosher salt" which is what the salt is called.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmAnd what evidence is there that the perception of vegans is improving? Actors, athletes, etc often ditch the lifestyle and end up criticizing it.
Can you show me what you mean? Are they trashing
vegans, or just saying it didn't work for them personally and that it's great if other people can do it?
Overwhelmingly, ex-vegans, except the vocal minority who built their reputation on it, are not venomous to vegans or veganism, and many failed vegans and vegetarians are willing and interested in trying again, which is what surveys report.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmwhat little research that does exist shows vegans are poorly regarded (I think I linked to the study earlier?).
I haven't seen that in any studies I've read (and I think I've read them all). Can you quote what you are interpreting as that?
People experiencing peer pressure and pressure from family doesn't mean vegans are poorly regarded, it means eating is very social and people want their friends and families to eat poorly with them.
Similar pressure exists for obese people from their obese friends and family (in particular) when they try to lose weight, it would be comical to interpret that as meaning a healthy BMI is poorly regarded.
carnap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:08 pmSure, people can believe ideologies that aren't consistent but they won't be doing it rationally but religions also fit a niche in human psychology. They provide meaning, etc and veganism would have to be expanded to something akin to Jainism if it was going to be propagated like a religion.
Not really, secular value systems have a niche in absence of religious ones; they don't need to pick up all of the supernatural trapping to fit the bill of providing meaning and purpose.