Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Vegan message board for support on vegan related issues and questions.
Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome, but please keep it within debate topics.
Post Reply
Cirion Spellbinder
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:28 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Presumably somewhere

Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Let me preface this by saying that I really enjoy the Unnatural Vegan channel. I think UV is good at explaining research, advocating for good altruistic strategies, and distancing herself from radicals. However, I just can’t bring myself to share her videos because she comes off as smug and sometimes glosses over information. She acknowledged the latter in her recent video “Rejecting the Vegan Message (what the meat industry thinks about vegans),” so I’m only concerned about the first. By it I mean that she talks as if you are already a vegan and critical of non-vegan lifestyles. For example, in that same video she makes a very polarizing claim (which I agree with) that it’s “interesting [...] who are so obviously on the wrong side of history,” referring to the author of the article and the meat industry in general. If you came to this video as a non-vegan you might be put off by this, perhaps considering it disrespectful or thinking that you’re also being referred to.

I think it would be to leave the judgement out and simply focus on debunking the article and providing superior evidence in its place. Placing blame isn’t going to help anyone and is really pointless.

Tell me what y’all think and I’m glad to be back (and then disappear for a thousand years)
carnap
Anti-Vegan Troll
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by carnap »

I'm not sure what is and isn't the best way to convert someone to veganism.....but beyond any potentially polarizing comments she doesn't really make the case for veganism in the first place. Its more so assumed as a given in her videos and she evaluates various issues within that scope. So I doubt her intent is as a resource for non-vegans in the fist place.
Cirion Spellbinder
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:28 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Presumably somewhere

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

carnap wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:03 am Its more so assumed as a given in her videos and she evaluates various issues within that scope.
Right, that’s what I was trying to get at.
So I doubt her intent is as a resource for non-vegans in the fist place.
I’m not sure about that. She references her non-vegan audience occasionally and has made introductory videos (see the “New to Veganism?” playlist).
User avatar
cookiedivine
Newbie
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:21 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by cookiedivine »

For example, in that same video she makes a very polarizing claim (which I agree with) that it’s “interesting [...] who are so obviously on the wrong side of history,”
I admit I was slightly put off by this. I think declaring that someone is on the right/wrong side of history makes it seem like you're not open to further evidence to the contrary - you've made your decision that so and so is 100% correct, from now until the end of time, and no-one can tell you otherwise. It seemed a bit TOO assertive imo, but I wouldn't have expected it from her so I don't think its an accurate reflection of her general approach.

I mean, most of the criticism she gets is from vegans who thinks she panders too much to non-vegans, sometimes to the extent that they accuse her of condoning non-veganism, so I don't think her being exclusionary to non-vegans is an issue (if anything, the opposite is more worthy of discussion).

I can only speak for myself when evaluating her general approach, but she's definitely my main inspiration with regards to veganism and vegan activism, tho she does ofc have her flaws. I'd have no qualms sharing her videos with non-vegans and vegans, as I feel they're the most representative of my own views (though I'd have to gauge the kind of person I was talking to - maybe an emotionless, non-anecdotal attitude would put them off?). That said, I can't say how much her videos factored in to me becoming vegan (not even sure I knew about her when I was non-vegan)
User avatar
Lightningman_42
Master in Training
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:19 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: California

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by Lightningman_42 »

Welcome back to the forum, Cirion!
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:13 amShe makes a very polarizing claim (which I agree with) that it’s “interesting [...] who are so obviously on the wrong side of history,” referring to the author of the article and the meat industry in general. If you came to this video as a non-vegan you might be put off by this, perhaps considering it disrespectful or thinking that you’re also being referred to.
Would most non-vegans hearing this from UV think that "so obviously on the wrong side of history" refers to any and all people who eat animals; or specifically ones who are dedicated to preserving the meat industry, and will fight tooth-and-nail to defend it?
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:13 amI think it would be to leave the judgement out and simply focus on debunking the article and providing superior evidence in its place. Placing blame isn’t going to help anyone and is really pointless.
Maybe you're right. I'm not sure. I was taken aback by this comment as well (I watched her new video earlier today), and doubtful of how it could be a good comment to make.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:13 amTell me what y’all think...
I think that UV is a good resource for non-vegans.

I agree with her that those who defend the meat industry are on the wrong side of history, but I'd agree with you that it was probably not a good idea to make that comment. Still, I don't think that she makes comments like this very often. For the most part, she is respectful of nonvegans, and I don't think she's terribly smug. I've seen some comments that she is smug, but I don't think that her "smugness" is enough to deter people away from what she has to say.

I think that UV is wise to be critical of other vegan activists who promote pseudoscience and bad philosophy. This is useful for earning nonvegans' respect, particularly those who've come across vegans who rubbed them the wrong way.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:13 am...and I’m glad to be back (and then disappear for a thousand years).
A thousand years? Can you even live that long? Your kind have about 300-year lifespans on average. I suppose that some altmer use magic to extend their lives, like Mannimarco (who lived well over 800 years, maybe over 1000 even). That's more the exception than the norm. Anyways, I'm glad to have you back!

P.S. Do you play Elder Scrolls Online?
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
Cirion Spellbinder
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:28 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Presumably somewhere

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

Lightningman_42 wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:31 pm Welcome back to the forum, Cirion!
Thanks my dude!
Would most non-vegans hearing this from UV think that "so obviously on the wrong side of history" refers to any and all people who eat animals; or specifically ones who are dedicated to preserving the meat industry, and will fight tooth-and-nail to defend it?
Obviously this speculative, but I think people tend to be sensitive when they believe they are being blamed. And while it does mean exactly what you've said, it takes a degree of sympathy for veganism to not make the assumption that this guilt trickles down to the consumers who support this industry.
I've seen some comments that she is smug, but I don't think that her "smugness" is enough to deter people away from what she has to say.
Again, I believe that people can be very sensitive and equate any sign of smugness to being lectured or distant from themselves. For example, while vegan memes might be funny and useful within vegan communities, they come off as cringeworthy, pushy, and most importantly, smug to outsiders.
I think that UV is wise to be critical of other vegan activists who promote pseudoscience and bad philosophy. This is useful for earning nonvegans' respect, particularly those who've come across vegans who rubbed them the wrong way.
I agree. This is why she is possibly the best vegan YouTuber of all time, but also why she has to mindful of sensitive people.

Also, wouldn't it be great if she covered the good philosophy instead of just alluding to it?!
]A thousand years? Can you even live that long? Your kind have about 300-year lifespans on average. I suppose that some altmer use magic to extend their lives, like Mannimarco (who lived well over 800 years, maybe over 1000 even). That's more the exception than the norm. Anyways, I'm glad to have you back!
:D
P.S. Do you play Elder Scrolls Online?
Unfortunately not. I've been very busy with school lately!
User avatar
Lightningman_42
Master in Training
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:19 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: California

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by Lightningman_42 »

Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:59 pmWouldn't it be great if she covered the good philosophy instead of just alluding to it?!
She does, somewhat. Did you see her second-most recent video, "Matt Dillahunty is Wrong, But So is Vegan Gains"?
She discusses the importance of atheists practicing objective secular morality, and the need for atheists to not make arbitrary judgments, about what animals deserve moral consideration and which do not. She is critical of the bad moral philosophy advocated by both Matt Dillahunty and Vegan Gains, and suggests alternatives.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:59 pm
LightningMan_42 wrote:P.S. Do you play Elder Scrolls Online?
Unfortunately not. I've been very busy with school lately!
Yeah, me too. I play ESO mostly on weekend evenings, if I have the time. I think you'd like ESO. There is this one dungeon in Auridon called "The Banished Cells", where you meet an altmer named "Keeper Cirion". He plays a role in the quest in that dungeon, to defeat a necromancer who is threatening to break free from his prison.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
carnap
Anti-Vegan Troll
Posts: 414
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Unnatural Vegan is not a good resource for non-vegans

Post by carnap »

Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:13 am I’m not sure about that. She references her non-vegan audience occasionally and has made introductory videos (see the “New to Veganism?” playlist).
She may....but I don't think that indicates that her channel is anything beyond a channel for vegans. The "new to veganism" video mostly goes over nutritional topics with some vague moralizing.

So I still doubt that is her intention, in fact, I cannot think of a single "vegan resource" that primarily tries to make the case to non-vegans and instead may provide information to "new vegans" or the "vegan curious"....not the vegan skeptical.
Post Reply