Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:35 pm Hmm I agree, but the simple contention is that there's no meaning until it's been created, until there's been movement, choices you made with what knowledge you had at your disposal.
What is creating meaning?
And how does that differ from discovering meaning in principles that were essentially already there?

Arguably there is created meaning, as distinct from that which is deduced, like the art that comes from chaos; we attribute meaning to it for no deductive reason only because we wanted to and got a subjective sense of beauty, or feel it necessary. There's not even clear causality there when we look at the nature of the universe.

But there is also meaning that is deduced and discovered in a way very different to that; one that unites based on a simple principle of valuing others, rather than divides us into our own subjective spheres of ego.

That's my point. Deduced meaning, like mathematics, is something that transcends individual experience.
Alien beings so distant as to be outside of our causal sphere would be deducing the same kinds of things about mathematics and simple principles of ethics and how we should live considering the interests of other sentient beings.

How can we be any more nihilistic about moral principles than we can about mathematics?

NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:35 pmThat life is conditioned by the not existing before hand and the not existing you return to, so although it's true that life is full of value and meaning rich experiences at your disposal, you're bound to being forced to live with the memories of experiences inacted on you, and muddling along with others who tried to inject a modicum of meaning into their experiences inacted on them, bound to be free.
What do you mean by this?
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:35 pmThe realization that you've been living in bad faith when you've gotten into bad habits of pacivity, etc.
Well, people can be mistaken about mathematics too. Bad habits abound, but they can only be bad habits if there's a good habit there to be conceived.
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:10 pm What is creating meaning?
And how does that differ from discovering meaning in principles that were essentially already there?
There's two things going on when we talk about nihilism, there's the obvious truth that extinction is inevitable, you don't choose where you're born, there's no use assuming that there's a special social logic to your existence going in, that nations are anything but geographic borders with which different people throughout history found it more or less practical to organize power, etc. So you can have consequentialist existentialists, virtue existentialists, deontological existentialists in this regard as accepting an obvious truth.

And then there's the experience of feeling one is living nihilism, having an existential crisis, maybe coming to terms that for your parents having you wasn't the right consequence so you have to do some drifting, re-invinting what you mean to yourself and your place in the universe, maybe coming to terms with a genocide and the experience of trying to pick back up the pieces, sow the threads of culture back together that might otherwise be lost. The special place of significance in ancient Greece of the cynic, etc.

I'm fine with someone considering me an egoist consequentialist or a rule-virtue-consequentialist, I just think there's still merit in using the word existentialist because to me it denotes that powerful imagery of solidarity when all interests might begin to work in close symbiosis.
For Deleuze nomadic ethics requires epistemological humility; it is anti-essentialist and non-normative, situated and contingent and emerges from situations themselves instead of being imposed upon them. It is an immanent ethics of experimentation that appeals to nothing outside of itself, a bio-centered, nonanthropocentric egalitarianism that recognizes our enfolding of and enfoldment within the world around us and a care for the self that is immediately a care for the not-self, for the infinitely complex web of relations within, and which are, our shared habitats. It is a practice of becoming together in constant differenciation, in affirmation of a deeper principle of difference, of differentiation, with an enhanced sense of situated accountability that “enlarges the sense of collectively bound subjectivity to non-human agents, from our genetic neighbours the animals, to the earth as a biosphere as a whole” (Braidotti 2006, p. 136).
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:35 pmThat life is conditioned by the not existing before hand and the not existing you return to, so although it's true that life is full of value and meaning rich experiences at your disposal, you're bound to being forced to live with the memories of experiences inacted on you, and muddling along with others who tried to inject a modicum of meaning into their experiences inacted on them, bound to be free.
What do you mean by this?
The veil of ignorance, the idea that it was completely out of your control when, why or where you entered existence, is something we always carry around with us and slants all our experiences when relating to the world and others, often in a positive way, that can give us clarity of mind.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:10 pm
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:35 pmThe realization that you've been living in bad faith when you've gotten into bad habits of pacivity, etc.
Well, people can be mistaken about mathematics too. Bad habits abound, but they can only be bad habits if there's a good habit there to be conceived.
Agreed.
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

_____

Next topic significant in script:

In group

Me

The only good reason to be consistently vegan is ethics, promoting consistent ethics means acknowledging all that encompasses, for the same reason we can be concerned about the wastefulness to our planet of bringing animals into our world only to suffer for taste, we can offset some of that by deciding to nourish ourselves on the waste that failed to sell commercially, or give it to carnivorous cats, it's a win for veganism and brings attention to a broken system.

I think freeganism does fall under most ethical definitions of veganism, but it's more coherent to have a plurality of terms when it comes to the action itself to avoid confusion. So someone might define themselves as a vegan but decide to act freegan some days, as freegan is a portmanteau of free + vegan, so dietary vegan + products that are free (no longer commercially viable).


Brim

I don't have any problem with defining it as something different from vegan. I think there's value in having a plurality of terms: vegan, freegan, ostro-vegan, because the way the human brain works (the linguistics of thought) is through associating concepts with words, and by using different words we promote a plurality of concepts and ways of reducing harm which give people more choices.

Just like Doritos puts out like ten SKUs (different flavors) to maximize consumer behavior, I think we need to work on diversifying the terms of how be a conscientious consumer to encourage more people to think about and adopt these practices.


Unnatural vegan

Cheetah vid
Not watering down words.


ModVegan

http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3651#p35494
It's so disappointing when vegans go after guys like Edwins Generation. He clearly means well, and he's not actively harming animals or exploiting them (as far as I could tell from the clips that UV used). He's just "impure", which is like catnip for angry vegans, who are thrilled to run him out of "club vegan" on a rail.

Mod Vegan: The Future Of Veganism & Vegan Technology
https://youtu.be/JD-GczXtcWE?t=2m56s

Chris:
I mean one thing I've always been interested in is obviously you know we call ourselves vegans and everything I mean when do you see the time when we are no longer vegan I mean do you think what do you think will happen to the term because once the world is vegan I mean are we still vegan or are we just normal no?

ModVegan:
I think that there will be a change there I'm not exactly I can't predict how that's going to occur what people are gonna call themselves in the future and I think that for ethical vegans once the world sort of accepts that exploitation is the wrong thing to do we will probably refer to people who exploit animals as exploiters and it's going to be like we call people racists today I mean that's probably going to be the same kind of epithet I'm not I don't really know what we're gonna do in that respect exactly the feeling is going to be kind of the same way people are gonna react instinctively against once it becomes a normal way of living people are going to be very suspicious of people who still exploit animals when they don't need

Chris:
have you seen the documentary on carnage British documentary yes there was a great line on Mary when that and someone was getting interviewed and they said oh you're just a vegan he said we're not vegans you're carnist yeah because you know that was kind of like the yeah the changing of the the use of language and stuff which I found really interesting because yeah I mean we've all got you know vegan is kind of like our identity in a ways and so be every strange if you strange to kind of shed that identity and just become

ModVegan:
exactly and I think it's exciting that people like you are excited about that like I'm excited for veganism some won't no longer be a big deal for everyone to just know that it's right not to exploit anyone unless you have to right yeah and I think this I'm excited for that I think there are some people who are a little afraid of losing that identity and I made a video about it this was last week like I I do think that that is a fear for some people um but I think we'll get over it at least I hope so yeah do we need more newbie vegans we need more people excited about not exploiting animals so I hope that we'll all be welcoming people who are who are giving up the animal product yeah definitely.


Ethologic (Tim) and Liam Anthony:

Liam Anthony‏
Clearly you are missing the point of my argument. I'm not arguing the ethics of a person who consumes road kill. There is more to life than trying to reduce harm. Vegans are a group of people who value not consuming corpses. If you consume corpse you ain't apart of the club.

Ethologic‏
You're not getting my point either. Who gives a shit about being in a club? I already said group membership is irrelevant to me if not for ethics. You've basically just convinced me that veganism isn't about making the most ethical decisions. I'm no longer Vegan.


Gary Francione

Creating market demand of seeing people eat freegan food.


a-bas-le-ciel

Live stream pre-cannibalism vid

We'll see if I live long enough to really live in a world where you look back on these days and miss them, when veganism had this kind of marginal position, I don't know, I mean we were looking at a small town in Michigan that actually has a vegan supermarket and we thought wow, wouldn’t that be amazing, imagine moving to that town just for that one supermarket and you know the comradery you would have with the owners and so on, as veganism get’s bigger that feeling of specialness is going to be diluted, that feeling of having a mission is gonna be deluded. I would love to believe we'll get stronger, but I don't think it will, in some ways it's going to become just another diet and some ways it's gonna become just another charity among the thousands asking for donations and so on.

Atheism-nihilism veg-veganism vid

Nihilism is not a very popular ideology and I think most people accept it's never gonna be it's almost by definition it's the perpetual outsider it's you know though it's always gonna be a gadfly and a critic in that Socratic sense of gadfly in relation to mainstream beliefs

Multicultarilism vid

My position reflects my own unique cultural experience, which is true, completely guilty. Is it not the case that I just come from a culture I despise? That I'm profoundly uncomfortable with and profoundly dissatisfied with, you know white English-speaking Canadian culture, that I grew up as a dissident in that culture, hating it and therefore I want to be in a multicultural setting? Maybe I would feel differently if for example I lived in Japan and I fundamentally liked and appreciated you know Japanese culture, you know what an even better example, South Korea . . .

But you know okay let's say I really like South Korean culture, then would it not be the case that within South Korea I would prefer to live in a high trust society? You know so it's not Catholic small-town Spain, I don't like Catholicism, I'm an atheist, I'm a nihilist, I'm an intellectual, there's reasons why small-town Catholic Spain wouldn't appeal to me, but what about a high trust society within South Korea, let's say it's a Buddhist community in South Korea, still no, still within Korea, still within South Korea. . .

Let's just say I love South Korean culture bit of a bit of an exaggeration, but if somebody but there are there a lot of things I preach about South Korean culture a lot of things

Still within South Korea, I want to be where the action is, I want to be in the entrepôt city, I want to be where South Korean culture is being challenged by European influence Chinese influence Japanese influence African influence Caribbean and both I want to be on the the multicultural edge of South Korean culture even if I love South Korean culture I want to be where the tough questions are being asked and that was even the case for me and Laos and Thailand but I'm not saying I'm right I'm not saying I'm right and the people in the small town wrong I'm not I'm saying it's a choice that reflects your character.
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

----

Thanks to Lay Vegan for the update, firmly a yes to acknowledging a practical and ethical way to call yourself vegan and do freeganism :)

Image
Image

Vegans Can Eat Meat? Re: Edwins Generation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQO401azjDg&lc=UgyrLu0zwfn8rpZAeiZ4AaABAg

Activist Journeys
Great breakdown of the video, subscribed. Just one or two comments Re: "You're right, and do you know what would save even more money and methane emissions from being released into the atmosphere, not visiting restaurants, you know like actual freegans."

I think this stereotype is the reason Edwin doesn't want to identify his actions as freegan, rather they just eat some cold meats ordered by other people that they couldn't eat and no longer want to, which I do think is freegan, but not a requirement of being freegan, I recommend reading this article for all the actions that being freegan can encompass, but are not mandatory:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Freeganism

"The interest in stripping back and living as minimally as possible can be seen to be more synonymous with Zero Waste. However, Freeganism also concerns itself with how society's most abundant, most energy intensive products are poorly managed. In this way, Freeganism and Zero Waste have a similar consumer activist mindset that can mean taking steps to lead the way in changing consumer practices."

I think freeganism does fall under most ethical definitions of veganism, but it's more coherent to have a plurality of terms when it comes to the action itself to avoid confusion. So someone might define themselves as a vegan but decide to act freegan some days, as freegan is a portmanteau of free + vegan, so dietary vegan + products that are free (no longer commercially viable).


Lay Vegan
In this way, Freeganism and Zero Waste have a similar consumer activist mindset that can mean taking steps to lead the way in changing consumer practices.
I see how my misunderstanding of freeganism lead me to believe it was staunchly anti-consumerist. My assumption was that freegans want the abolition of consumerist/capitalist industry, not a "reformation" of it. I stand corrected. :) Though many freegans hold anti-consumerist sentiments, abstaining entirely from the mainstream economy probably isn't practicable for most people.
...it's more coherent to have a plurality of terms when it comes to the action itself to avoid confusion. So someone might define themselves as a vegan but decide to act freegan some days, as freegan is a portmanteau of free + vegan, so dietary vegan + products that are free (no longer commercially viable).
Agreed. Practicability is always more important than ideological purity.


Activist Journeys
Aces, thanks for the update.

Anti-capitalist stuff in the early beginnings is not without president, I'll go into that in more depth when I cover APV's support of 'Food not Bombs' in my own video. But it really has developed into something so broad, if you look at wikipedia, people just doing urban gardening, rescuing food thrown away by shops to feed their worms to make vermi-compost think of themselves as doing something freegan:

"In order to fertilize those guerrilla gardens, food obtained from dumpster diving is sometimes also reused, and some use vermiculture instead of ordinary composting techniques in order to keep the required infrastructure small and adapted to urban areas."
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism#Wild_foraging_and_urban_gardens

You really did a great job of breaking down the video, where you cut and expand on his points, I'll probably use this clip in my video @3:05 where you say:

"No, it is not environmentally friendly to waste food, food waste is terrible for the environment and globally it accounts for about 3.3 billion tons of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Food waste is also one of the leading causes of world hunger, we actually produce enough food to feed the world round, but this food often is wasted or fed to animals instead and this is something that vegans should care about if they truly care about animals they should be concerned with this"

-----

Will talk more about anti-capitalism covering APV, but yea the trying to live entirely free from consuming is looked down upon even within the anarchist movement:

"I'm a better anarchist than you" song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvlWSnLxrrc
Can Masdeu - "there is an understand that we need money."
https://youtu.be/D7BoHdNg31U

And reforms part and parcel of the struggle:
In general, platformist groups aim to win the widest possible influence for anarchist ideas and methods in the working class and peasantry—like especifismo groups, platformists orient towards the working class, rather than to the far-left. This usually entails a willingness to work in single-issue campaigns, trade unionism and community groups, and to fight for immediate reforms while linking this to a project of building popular consciousness and organisation. They therefore reject approaches that they believe will prevent this, such as insurrectionary anarchism, as well as "views that dismiss activity in the unions" or that dismiss anti-imperialist movements.[2]
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platformism#Overview
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

NonZeroSum wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:12 am I'm fine with someone considering me an egoist consequentialist or a rule-virtue-consequentialist,
The latter sounds right. Egoism has a lot of Randian-Objectivist style baggage, and implies being self-serving as the ultimate good, rather than a more general existential sense of finding yourself as being something you do on the road to doing good (if I get what you're saying).
NonZeroSum wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:12 amI just think there's still merit in using the word existentialist because to me it denotes that powerful imagery of solidarity when all interests might begin to work in close symbiosis.
Existentialist, I think yes, but I don't think nihilist fits.
Existentialism can be an important part of the equation, but nihilism is too negative and suggests there is no other component beyond fabricated meaning.
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

brimstoneSalad wrote:
NonZeroSum wrote: I'm fine with someone considering me an egoist consequentialist or a rule-virtue-consequentialist,
The latter sounds right. Egoism has a lot of Randian-Objectivist style baggage, and implies being self-serving as the ultimate good,
That's probably true, a conservatism of revering the status quo.
brimstoneSalad wrote: rather than a more general existential sense of finding yourself as being something you do on the road to doing good (if I get what you're saying).
I'm thinking of a creative nihilism that does this, and a future to orientate ourselves towards that will be the mode of relation above simply keeping up the co-operation to satisfy everyone's basic interests.

I picture this similar to the Overton Window, with a graph of different philosophies usefulness, the leveling out that will occur when a new status quo is achieved, when we've moved carefully towards the top with culture and society functioning at it's highest.

Image

Image
brimstoneSalad wrote: Existentialist, I think yes, but I don't think nihilist fits.
Existentialism can be an important part of the equation, but nihilism is too negative and suggests there is no other component beyond fabricated meaning.
Whell as my profile picture suggests, I'm not shy of reclaiming negative imagery. Will keep studying to follow how philosophies attempt to substantiate themselves above others and refutations made.

Egoist:The Ethics of Post-Anarchism by Saul Newman
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3190
• The Scientific Image of Man
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3283
Consequentialist: The Issue with Gary Francione and Deontological Veganism?
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=785
Virtue: Anarchism: Ethics and Meta-Ethics (Benjamin Franks)
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&p=32706
• Stoic virtue ethics (Matthew Sharpe)
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3384
Subjectivist Duties: Daniel Kaufman On Intuitionism and Folk Psychology
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggAkFIzFoI
• Of the Standard of Taste by David Hume (1909)
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3361
Absurdism: Existential questions raised in ‘Rick and Morty’
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2973

Amoralism: Moral nihilism and veganism
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2998
Utilitarian: Is veganism based on utilitarian ethics?
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?t=968#p9743
Virtue: AFTER VIRTUE by Alasdair MacIntyre.
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3721
Deontology: Kant and the Constitutional Model (Christine Korsgaard)
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3419
• Consequentialism and Deontology in Hegel's Philosophy of Right by Dean Moyar
- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3722&p=36138
Theology: Buddhism and Modern Psychology by Robert Wright
- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-H7e9alC7Wlwyq597betK0nb98wXTysB
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

Lots more arguments to work with from Liam.

________

Because you can be a freegan or vegan and fit within each other's ethical definition of one another, it makes sense that there would be a blurry line at the level of identity, one that shouldn't be as troubling as a meat eater being mostly vegan but calling themselves vegan, and more of a pragmatic issue of when to rep for which cause.

I think the attempt by some vegans to label freeganism as something aberrant or entirely impractical is an example of trying to maintain ideological purity to such an extent that you end up defending something irrational. Freeganism doesn't have to come at the cost of getting to live the comfortable capitalist life, but through the mere fact that this lifestyle is possible, it opens up room for critique to be had of both extremes.

Image

In response to the analogy of the vegan country club-house, would it not be possible for a guy to come from a rescued food, soup, street tabling, having eaten some of the bread that contained whey to a vegan house that doesn't let any animal products through the door and being able to respect that custom and participate in vegan activism also. That it still makes sense for that person to call themselves vegan if they practice that most of the time, but sometimes also participate in freegan practices, and just chooses when to represent which lifestyle and campaign strategies.

Image . . Image

At the food not bombs action guy reps for freeganism: . . At the animal save action guy reps for veganism:
Against food waste, spreading awareness about . . . . . . . Against contributing to the killing of animals,
wasteful energy intensive products like meat. . . . . . . . . Bearing witness to the cruelty,
Uses vegan staples for what they can't rescue. . . . . . . . . Spreading awareness to those with their eyes closed.
Food evangelism; feeding carnists so they don't go buy . . .
more animals. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Transcript:

Liam: No, absolutely not, and they’re like; “what are you talking about, it's not immoral to fucking eat a dead animal because there's no harm and such and such”

And I'm like yeah, it's not immoral to eat fucking roadkill because you're not causing harm, but it's not a value that vegans share, vegans share the value that animals aren't products, alive or dead and you don't want to set the precedent that it's okay to treat a dead body for fucking means of consumption, right?

That's a value that you share, now you might not agree with that value but like that's what makes you part of the fucking in-group, right it's a value that you share?

And I can admit that it's not immoral, but it's not a vegan thing like it's two different fucking things, like vegans don't eat animals and people got in a fucking hissy fit about that.

Me: Veganism is rooted in ethics. . .

Right, it is absolutely rooted in ethics and the value of not eating dead bodies doesn't violate any type of morality, it's completely aligned with it, right like you're not a more moral person, like eating a dead body you know the one that you know it was a road kill or a trash corpse or whatever, that's an amoral act.

Nick: Yeah I could fuck a corpse in you know a fucking wormhole and you know but it would like there wouldn't be anything ethically wrong with it but it's still like sending the

Liam: Yeah it's not a value that vegans would share you know what I'm saying so like you could be a freegan but you're freegan you know like yeah like that's cool you know I'm saying go do your thing you know I wish you want it you know fuck with corpses hey I don't think that's cool but you're not causing any harm so I can't say like you're immoral because you're not but like I wish you wouldn't you know but you're not vegan you know your your different thing like do your own thing that's cool

Me: It’s a virtue not an obligation. . .

Yeah that's what I'm talk about, I just got done talking about how there's more to life than like the morals and ethics

Nick: like actually that's a really key point Liam cuz I often I often bring up the Oh what is it normalization bottles um eat well eat yeah Aristotle's three modes of persuasion and how there's demos right right yeah I think that's that's so important to recognize cuz everyone's just like pure logos mode but I think it's important to you like understand these three modes to kind of like get a better metacognitive perspective like you I honestly think these things are are interchangeable like I obviously would say like not too much ethos or you know any because of audience yeah exactly exactly it totally depends on the audience

Me: Is it useful to kick people out of a club based on virtue though?

Liam: Depends on the situation like tell me like tell me like the details like are the people not wearing the proper shoe wear and it's a value for the club to say hey we want to have copper shoe wear then yeah the value the the club is completely in the right to kick people out because people aren't wearing a proper shoe where they have a club you know they have a set standard and stuff like that as long as the value as long as the value isn't like goes against morality like if it's in line with morality they're just like it doesn't fucking matter

Like if your value is to like run up and grab bitches vaginas you know just sexually harass people like that's a issue you know cuz it's going against like TrueNorth principles it's going against morality like it's your cause it harm you're violating individuals and stuff like that so that's a little bit different yeah

Me: But you're closing off veganism to only virtue and deontological interpretations, so consequentialists can’t call themselves vegan.

Here's the thing, veganism is a subcultural response to. . . veganism is an in-group, it’s an in-group that has a belief system, right? Veganism is about individual rights, animal rights, that leads to reduced harm, yada yada yada yada, and vegans don’t want to use animals in any type of way, shape or form, as far as practicable or possible.

Now if you’re a freegan and you're eating trash corpses, roadkill and all that shit, again those aren't immoral actions, I can't say that it's immoral to eat roadkill, there's no harm being done, right? But you're not a vegan and that's okay.

Like you don't need to be a vegan, like you don't have to be, you don't have to be a vegan that's fine you know?

And the thing is is with freeganism like you're already moving the spectrum of the Overton Window, right? Like you're already you're not causing harm you know, you're living in a more reduced harm lifestyle and that's cool, but like why do you need to be a part of like the vegan group, like why can't you be a part of the freegan group, like why do you need to be included under that title of vegan like

Nick: it's like you don't have to to follow a deontological frame to to necessarily like result it's like like veganism obviously has like a logical structure that follows from veganism.

It’s like if I if I eat meat I'm not a vegan, like period that like sorry but that's just how it is so I want to get free in like yeah I can just like eat potato chips on a fucking box on whatever else like I could be a freakin and not I could consume just plant-based stuff and I wouldn't I wouldn't be avoiding myself with that vegan in group but as soon as your you know falling out of that in group by choosing other choices like consuming meat while being a vegan like obviously you're like it's not it's not like veganism isn't binding you to that deontological frame like it's because you don't need deontology to get the fucking veganism so it's just so frustrating people use this deontological fucking bullshit argument

Liam: Like I don’t understand why it has to be this all-encompassing fuckin ethical framework that you utilize, to exercise through every aspect of your life, it's like it's just it's a how you treat animals like it's just to tell you until you treat animals you know like.

Like I'm not a vegan because I'm trying to be the most fucking high ethical person in the whole fucking world and you know that's cool

. . . I'm not going around trying to police people I'm going I've got traps set up with cameras at Suffolk dumpsters at restaurants and she like I really don't care you know like unless you're like some fucking punk-ass kid is the deity pods and then you go and make a fucking video it's like I chicken that sends a really bad message you know to fucking people that were trying to get to that view animals as products if it's all I'm saying

like like like vegans don't eat animals by any definition colloquial vegetarian society dictionary like they just don't eat animals like they don't view animals you end up like there's no I've never met a vegan who's like okay I'm going to eat a fucking chicken lady that's at the garbage I've never been up like a vegan isn't like that's not a it's not an identifier like that's like there's one thing being like you they don't eat animals that's like the fate that's the one thing yeah you know it's like it's like yeah freakin can be like you know reduce harm I don't understand why like there's such a big deal like why is that even like can't see like how is that such like that it how's that a controversy because doesn't make any sense to me like

and why is everybody trying to use veganism as their vehicle for all of their ethical thoughts it’s so infuriating, veganism is a response to speciesism, it's just our relationship with animals, it's all veganism is.

Nick: Do you care about consistent treatment across species and meaningfulness like like would you want to be treated in the way that you're proposing the animal industry that is literally the most basic simple like simplified log like logic 101 simplified logic follow like I don't need to dive and all this crazy meta ethical horseshit like it's so it's just month you're diving into things that you don't actually need to dive into to logically

Liam: it's like veganism is a pretty simple fucking thing it's so simple it's so simple you know if you want it like being like a minimalist or like waste-free or an time saver if it's like no much is how we treat animals how we view them you know like I don't see freaking going to bark and sucking on organ all this bitch like oh yeah oh you drop that little cool you know yeah it's like why can't they just accept it's like you're not a part of the buff but like it's like you know you're not our country but you're a li I like why does begin as a like a V

like here's the thing veganism has two definitions right vegans are just eat a vegan diet right so consuming no animal products then you can file yourself vegan before okay and then you have like ethical vegans you know who don't eat animal products for ethical reasons they don't contribute to, but like I don't understand like like this idea like oh I can go ahead and eat like so like if you lived behind like a Chinese restaurant and you're free good and then you eat fucking soup fried rice pork fucking nope

Me: How many vegans really subscribed to the longer vegan society definition though?

There's two parts to the vegan death of the vegan society definition you have the practice of all and all that shit and there's a second part and I have issues but the second part like you know every weekend practices differently but one thing yeah yeah veganism I'd like because you're a student and a different College like you're trying to call yourself another day you graduate because your student at a different College like no you did you're not in the club but you didn't do what like the other day if you run out no Dave you didn't do the qualification

Me: Animals become objects not subjects when they die.

Veganism is a response to Carnism which is a culture, I think it would be sending the wrong message to literally ninety-nine point nine nine and there's a very I think there's a very important reason why, so yeah and it's like what's funny it's like Here I am I've given a definition of veganism that super inclusive, and this person that arguing that I'm exclusive.

You have an in-group, you have a club, you have a country club, you want to be part of the club, just don’t eat animals, if you want to eat animals, then go be part of the freegan club, like it doesn’t matter why the rule is the rule.

Like why do we have to debate it, like the one thing that makes veganism unique, which is not much to ask, it’s not like a secret fucking handshake, just don’t eat animals and you’re part of the club.

Why would you want to put tortured death in your body

All these people are like trying to create a complete definition of veganism, it’s like they want the ten commandments, they can’t deal with the ambiguity of it, just leave it be.

Me: It’s not sophistry though, I’m asking you to include useful activist approaches in the definition of what it can mean to be vegan like tabling rescued food that will prevent carnists from buying more animals themselves.

You’re asking me to do a positive action, are you saying I have to do that in order to be vegan, because if that’s the case I’m going to say leave my freedom alone.

You can clearly see I respect the freegan position, but for me the freegan position has nothing to do with animal rights,

Nick: The logical conclusion of veganism does not infringe on freeganism,

Liam: Does the vegan have to eat that roadkill to be more moral, well then you’re attributing a positive right, you’re saying you have to do this in order to be more moral. . . wheras veganism you’re saying don’t do something,

Me: People should be able to call themselves vegan and maybe plan to save food waste 5 years next Sunday.

I don’t give a fuck about waste, I’m full blown capitalism abundance, man the fuck up bro, get a fuckin job, like I don’t litter, but I don’t recycle how about that, I’m not trying to be the world’s fucking most ethical person, I’m not trying to be a jainist.

Me: People can find vegan easier through zero waste lifestyle if vegans are more accepting of freegan practices through consequentialism.

Like who are these people digging through dumpsters, like homeless people? What do you want from me, I don’t get it. How much meat do you eat? Do you enjoy that product of torture, blood and guts going into your mouth? To be honest dude it’s the plant-based doctors and innovation that’s going to make the world a better place.

Nick: Okay let me just hammer this point, because I kind of noticed a category error. There’s the point that yes that it’s amoral, it’s sending the wrong signal because you’re eating a corpse, people aren’t seeing the meta-ethical structure, they’re just seeing this persons eating a corpse, they don’t think a logical thought about it, so I would say of course you can make the argument for reduced suffering on the freegan diet, but like you’re making a category error,

Liam: It’s two different things, but hey, treating animals with respect the same way you would alive or dead, same way you would humans,

Me: Where's the proof though?

Nick: I don’t have proof other than personal anecdotes.

Liam: But it’s fucking culture, like footsoldier went through this stuff, it’s culture, monkey see monkey do, there’s a study that shows that if you eat meat then more people are going to eat meat as you do

Nick: Like bacon tho, bacon tho, bacon tho, now you have all these people saying bacon tho.

Liam: Like he’s saying we can feed homeless people and shit

Nick: Yea not an argument against veganism. I’ll concede that point

Liam: You’ll get moral points for that, I don’t give a shit about that, I don’t wish harm on other people, I’m not trying to run a fucking homeless shelter, I don’t give a fuck about those people, like for me my solution is why don’t I make a bunch of money and then hook people up with some bad ass vegan food, you know like create a local garden.

And also like provide me the evidence that you’re little bullshit freeganism is the best way to reduce the amount of waste, like maybe there’s something else I can be doing, maybe you work at a corporation who goes through a billion papers a year, and you’re like no you should do a recycling or some other solution you know with their time.

When you’re setting moral baselines, it’s all about what people not doing shit, if all of a sudden you’re telling people they’ve got to go do stuff, you’re infringing on freedoms and it’s not moral, you see what I’m saying?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Wow, quite a conversation.
Almost ready to make the video, or are you going to add a lot in?

(did you double post that by accident? I saw a similar post in the black hole)
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:01 pm Wow, quite a conversation.
Aye was funny, caught them on the end of 5 hour stream at 6 in the morning for them, my morning routine at 10. Was prodding them for soundbites to record from computer stereo mix, but sadly forgot I had my mic plugged in from far away so the audio came out really bad with traffic noises in the background, but still managed to get auto-transcript.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:01 pmAlmost ready to make the video, or are you going to add a lot in?
About half-way, I'm being perfectionist about arranging narrative and trying to cover every point anyone's ever said on the tinternet aha. Will reduce it down when I'm finished.

Also confirmed interview plans on this with friend, but still got to arrange travel trip to London:

-------------------

. . .would you want to converse on camera about food not bombs and real junk food cafes?
I can also just line up a bunch of clips to watch of current media representations of freeganism and food waste reform, so we can riff off of that with our experiences:
TV:
• Clean polished Selina Juul on BBC showing how she has reformed shelf policies of all major supermarkets in Denmark.
• Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall making bread pudding from dumpster goods rescued with some of London's poor youth, part of the War on Want campaign.
Newspapers:
• Junk food cafes opening up
YouTube:
• Vegan Gains: How Much Food Can You Find In A Dumpster?
• Shelbizleee: Vitamin dive
• Carb Up and Carpe Diem! Family dive
• EcoPeaceful: Pet food dive
Facebook:
• I remember you sharing a statement by charities not accepting waste bread for not wanting to validate/perpetuate the industry practice.

-------------------

Sections:
(those almost finished are striked through)

Intro
Definition of Freeganism & History
• Pro-Freegan consequentialists; Unnatural Vegan, ModVegan & Ethologic
Anti-Freegan consequentialists; LayVegan and Footsoldier
Contrast with Greece's potato movement
Consequentialist wrap up
Liam Anthony on unnecessarily exclusive club and virtue.
• Contrast with Feedback and Society of St. Andrews
• Virtue ethics wrap up
• Gary Francione on not eating food cooked on the same grill.
Contrast with APV who also sees merit in treating some duties to equality as a rule
• Deontology wrap up
Eisel Mazard on meat eating being cannibalism
• Contrast with my interest in the Situationists concept of psycho-geographies,
Nihilist wrap up
• Video Summary

Other jobs:

• Coming up with a snappy title and enticing thumbnail
• Any ideas for animations that can jazz up the video
Sourcing clips - Definitely feel like done this now, aha, got all the videos mentioned here on the desktop ready to go if choose to use them.

-------------------
brimstoneSalad wrote:(did you double post that by accident? I saw a similar post in the black hole)
I went past the time period to edit, so did the switcheroo.
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Re: Freegan Practices Explainer and Open Letter to Vegan Advocates (New Channel Video)

Post by NonZeroSum »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:00 pm It looks good so far. Let me know when you finish the script and I'll read over the rest & give feedback. Will you post it as a second half or maybe note changes in another color?
Just over half way there, first weekend I've had chance to add more, but threw the first and latest drafts in the wiki so peeps can see edits in history:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Talk:Philosophical_Vegan_YouTube_Channel

_________

Contrast with Gleaning and Guerrilla Gardening

Image

Let’s look at Liam’s response to the comparison of campaign strategies, that of street tabling rescued food for free/donation.
You’ll get moral points for that, I don’t give a shit about that, I don’t wish harm on other people, I’m not trying to run a fucking homeless shelter, I don’t give a fuck about those people, like for me my solution is why don’t I make a bunch of money and then hook people up with some bad ass vegan food, you know like create a local garden.

And also like provide me the evidence that you’re little bullshit freeganism is the best way to reduce the amount of waste, like maybe there’s something else I can be doing, maybe you work at a corporation who goes through a billion papers a year, and you’re like no you should do a recycling or some other solution you know with their time.

When you’re setting moral baselines, it’s all about what people not doing shit, if all of a sudden you’re telling people they’ve got to go do stuff, you’re infringing on freedoms and it’s not moral, you see what I’m saying?
So two things to say here, freeganism does exist in an odd quagmire in acknowledging the goal of freeganism is to essentially reduce the need for freeganism in itself. It's a funny situation to be in wanting more people to rescue food that’s already been wasted, but in the long run, the true goal is to eliminate the cycle completely.

But it’s no more peculiar than vegans advocating in the short term for the animals alive today, when the long-term goal is a reduced numbers born into that suffering tomorrow.

So then this activism can take a number of forms, for freegans buying less wasteful products is an incentive to those industries and opening the space up for greener innovations.

As well as the consciousness raising campaigning that can be done, to gather the requisite mass support to petition companies or government.

Image

Take Feedback for example, who go out in the fields and help farmers glean vegetables that were not cost effective to pick because of cosmetic issues that year and give to charity, raising awareness at the same time. [1]

Liam also suggested starting a local garden.

Image

How about a fun day out with the family gleaning apples for free that had fallen after the commercial pick had already happened? [2]

But absolutely, put your own sweat and blood into a local garden, and if you live in a food desert with no shop for miles selling fresh fruit or veg, making it hard to impossible to be vegan/freegan, challenge that system by gardening plots of land no one ever paid no-mind to like Ron Finley: [3]

Image
This is South Los Angeles. Liquor stores, fast food, vacant lots. Just like 26.5 million other Americans, I live in a food desert, South Central Los Angeles, home of the drive-thru and the drive-by. Funny thing is, the drive-thrus are killing more people than the drive-bys. People are dying from curable diseases in South Central Los Angeles.
Once you’ve done your little buuullshit ;) freegan deed of brightening up your community by challenging the city planning code and building plans, and you’ve got you’re product, you can still go ahead and turn a profit by selling it on:
What I'm talking about is putting people to work, and getting kids off the street, and letting them know the joy, the pride and the honor in growing your own food. Opening farmer's markets. . .

Virtue Ethics wrap up

So we've talked about solutions that have big consequential impacts for the small mutually beneficial relationships being built during these actions, but often the bigger goal as is often the case with veganism is that of conscious raising at the level of character virtue.


Links in the Description

1. Gleaning Network UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Jn2xUezDY

2. Gleaning 300 lbs of Apples In 1 Hour !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m2fDUWz1I

3. A guerilla gardener in South Central LA | Ron Finley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzZzZ_qpZ4w
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