Lots more arguments to work with from Liam.
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Because you can be a freegan or vegan and fit within each other's ethical definition of one another, it makes sense that there would be a blurry line at the level of identity, one that shouldn't be as troubling as a meat eater being mostly vegan but calling themselves vegan, and more of a pragmatic issue of when to rep for which cause.
I think the attempt by some vegans to label freeganism as something aberrant or entirely impractical is an example of trying to maintain ideological purity to such an extent that you end up defending something irrational. Freeganism doesn't have to come at the cost of getting to live the comfortable capitalist life, but through the mere fact that this lifestyle is possible, it opens up room for critique to be had of both extremes.
In response to the analogy of the vegan country club-house, would it not be possible for a guy to come from a rescued food, soup, street tabling, having eaten some of the bread that contained whey to a vegan house that doesn't let any animal products through the door and being able to respect that custom and participate in vegan activism also. That it still makes sense for that person to call themselves vegan if they practice that most of the time, but sometimes also participate in freegan practices, and just chooses when to represent which lifestyle and campaign strategies.
. .
At the food not bombs action guy reps for freeganism: . . At the animal save action guy reps for veganism:
Against food waste, spreading awareness about . . . . . . . Against contributing to the killing of animals,
wasteful energy intensive products like meat. . . . . . . . . Bearing witness to the cruelty,
Uses vegan staples for what they can't rescue. . . . . . . . . Spreading awareness to those with their eyes closed.
Food evangelism; feeding carnists so they don't go buy . . .
more animals. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Transcript:
Liam: No, absolutely not, and they’re like; “what are you talking about, it's not immoral to fucking eat a dead animal because there's no harm and such and such”
And I'm like yeah, it's not immoral to eat fucking roadkill because you're not causing harm, but it's not a value that vegans share, vegans share the value that animals aren't products, alive or dead and you don't want to set the precedent that it's okay to treat a dead body for fucking means of consumption, right?
That's a value that you share, now you might not agree with that value but like that's what makes you part of the fucking in-group, right it's a value that you share?
And I can admit that it's not immoral, but it's not a vegan thing like it's two different fucking things, like vegans don't eat animals and people got in a fucking hissy fit about that.
Me: Veganism is rooted in ethics. . .
Right, it is absolutely rooted in ethics and the value of not eating dead bodies doesn't violate any type of morality, it's completely aligned with it, right like you're not a more moral person, like eating a dead body you know the one that you know it was a road kill or a trash corpse or whatever, that's an amoral act.
Nick: Yeah I could fuck a corpse in you know a fucking wormhole and you know but it would like there wouldn't be anything ethically wrong with it but it's still like sending the
Liam: Yeah it's not a value that vegans would share you know what I'm saying so like you could be a freegan but you're freegan you know like yeah like that's cool you know I'm saying go do your thing you know I wish you want it you know fuck with corpses hey I don't think that's cool but you're not causing any harm so I can't say like you're immoral because you're not but like I wish you wouldn't you know but you're not vegan you know your your different thing like do your own thing that's cool
Me: It’s a virtue not an obligation. . .
Yeah that's what I'm talk about, I just got done talking about how there's more to life than like the morals and ethics
Nick: like actually that's a really key point Liam cuz I often I often bring up the Oh what is it normalization bottles um eat well eat yeah Aristotle's three modes of persuasion and how there's demos right right yeah I think that's that's so important to recognize cuz everyone's just like pure logos mode but I think it's important to you like understand these three modes to kind of like get a better metacognitive perspective like you I honestly think these things are are interchangeable like I obviously would say like not too much ethos or you know any because of audience yeah exactly exactly it totally depends on the audience
Me: Is it useful to kick people out of a club based on virtue though?
Liam: Depends on the situation like tell me like tell me like the details like are the people not wearing the proper shoe wear and it's a value for the club to say hey we want to have copper shoe wear then yeah the value the the club is completely in the right to kick people out because people aren't wearing a proper shoe where they have a club you know they have a set standard and stuff like that as long as the value as long as the value isn't like goes against morality like if it's in line with morality they're just like it doesn't fucking matter
Like if your value is to like run up and grab bitches vaginas you know just sexually harass people like that's a issue you know cuz it's going against like TrueNorth principles it's going against morality like it's your cause it harm you're violating individuals and stuff like that so that's a little bit different yeah
Me: But you're closing off veganism to only virtue and deontological interpretations, so consequentialists can’t call themselves vegan.
Here's the thing, veganism is a subcultural response to. . . veganism is an in-group, it’s an in-group that has a belief system, right? Veganism is about individual rights, animal rights, that leads to reduced harm, yada yada yada yada, and vegans don’t want to use animals in any type of way, shape or form, as far as practicable or possible.
Now if you’re a freegan and you're eating trash corpses, roadkill and all that shit, again those aren't immoral actions, I can't say that it's immoral to eat roadkill, there's no harm being done, right? But you're not a vegan and that's okay.
Like you don't need to be a vegan, like you don't have to be, you don't have to be a vegan that's fine you know?
And the thing is is with freeganism like you're already moving the spectrum of the Overton Window, right? Like you're already you're not causing harm you know, you're living in a more reduced harm lifestyle and that's cool, but like why do you need to be a part of like the vegan group, like why can't you be a part of the freegan group, like why do you need to be included under that title of vegan like
Nick: it's like you don't have to to follow a deontological frame to to necessarily like result it's like like veganism obviously has like a logical structure that follows from veganism.
It’s like if I if I eat meat I'm not a vegan, like period that like sorry but that's just how it is so I want to get free in like yeah I can just like eat potato chips on a fucking box on whatever else like I could be a freakin and not I could consume just plant-based stuff and I wouldn't I wouldn't be avoiding myself with that vegan in group but as soon as your you know falling out of that in group by choosing other choices like consuming meat while being a vegan like obviously you're like it's not it's not like veganism isn't binding you to that deontological frame like it's because you don't need deontology to get the fucking veganism so it's just so frustrating people use this deontological fucking bullshit argument
Liam: Like I don’t understand why it has to be this all-encompassing fuckin ethical framework that you utilize, to exercise through every aspect of your life, it's like it's just it's a how you treat animals like it's just to tell you until you treat animals you know like.
Like I'm not a vegan because I'm trying to be the most fucking high ethical person in the whole fucking world and you know that's cool
. . . I'm not going around trying to police people I'm going I've got traps set up with cameras at Suffolk dumpsters at restaurants and she like I really don't care you know like unless you're like some fucking punk-ass kid is the deity pods and then you go and make a fucking video it's like I chicken that sends a really bad message you know to fucking people that were trying to get to that view animals as products if it's all I'm saying
like like like vegans don't eat animals by any definition colloquial vegetarian society dictionary like they just don't eat animals like they don't view animals you end up like there's no I've never met a vegan who's like okay I'm going to eat a fucking chicken lady that's at the garbage I've never been up like a vegan isn't like that's not a it's not an identifier like that's like there's one thing being like you they don't eat animals that's like the fate that's the one thing yeah you know it's like it's like yeah freakin can be like you know reduce harm I don't understand why like there's such a big deal like why is that even like can't see like how is that such like that it how's that a controversy because doesn't make any sense to me like
and why is everybody trying to use veganism as their vehicle for all of their ethical thoughts it’s so infuriating, veganism is a response to speciesism, it's just our relationship with animals, it's all veganism is.
Nick: Do you care about consistent treatment across species and meaningfulness like like would you want to be treated in the way that you're proposing the animal industry that is literally the most basic simple like simplified log like logic 101 simplified logic follow like I don't need to dive and all this crazy meta ethical horseshit like it's so it's just month you're diving into things that you don't actually need to dive into to logically
Liam: it's like veganism is a pretty simple fucking thing it's so simple it's so simple you know if you want it like being like a minimalist or like waste-free or an time saver if it's like no much is how we treat animals how we view them you know like I don't see freaking going to bark and sucking on organ all this bitch like oh yeah oh you drop that little cool you know yeah it's like why can't they just accept it's like you're not a part of the buff but like it's like you know you're not our country but you're a li I like why does begin as a like a V
like here's the thing veganism has two definitions right vegans are just eat a vegan diet right so consuming no animal products then you can file yourself vegan before okay and then you have like ethical vegans you know who don't eat animal products for ethical reasons they don't contribute to, but like I don't understand like like this idea like oh I can go ahead and eat like so like if you lived behind like a Chinese restaurant and you're free good and then you eat fucking soup fried rice pork fucking nope
Me: How many vegans really subscribed to the longer vegan society definition though?
There's two parts to the vegan death of the vegan society definition you have the practice of all and all that shit and there's a second part and I have issues but the second part like you know every weekend practices differently but one thing yeah yeah veganism I'd like because you're a student and a different College like you're trying to call yourself another day you graduate because your student at a different College like no you did you're not in the club but you didn't do what like the other day if you run out no Dave you didn't do the qualification
Me: Animals become objects not subjects when they die.
Veganism is a response to Carnism which is a culture, I think it would be sending the wrong message to literally ninety-nine point nine nine and there's a very I think there's a very important reason why, so yeah and it's like what's funny it's like Here I am I've given a definition of veganism that super inclusive, and this person that arguing that I'm exclusive.
You have an in-group, you have a club, you have a country club, you want to be part of the club, just don’t eat animals, if you want to eat animals, then go be part of the freegan club, like it doesn’t matter why the rule is the rule.
Like why do we have to debate it, like the one thing that makes veganism unique, which is not much to ask, it’s not like a secret fucking handshake, just don’t eat animals and you’re part of the club.
Why would you want to put tortured death in your body
All these people are like trying to create a complete definition of veganism, it’s like they want the ten commandments, they can’t deal with the ambiguity of it, just leave it be.
Me: It’s not sophistry though, I’m asking you to include useful activist approaches in the definition of what it can mean to be vegan like tabling rescued food that will prevent carnists from buying more animals themselves.
You’re asking me to do a positive action, are you saying I have to do that in order to be vegan, because if that’s the case I’m going to say leave my freedom alone.
You can clearly see I respect the freegan position, but for me the freegan position has nothing to do with animal rights,
Nick: The logical conclusion of veganism does not infringe on freeganism,
Liam: Does the vegan have to eat that roadkill to be more moral, well then you’re attributing a positive right, you’re saying you have to do this in order to be more moral. . . wheras veganism you’re saying don’t do something,
Me: People should be able to call themselves vegan and maybe plan to save food waste 5 years next Sunday.
I don’t give a fuck about waste, I’m full blown capitalism abundance, man the fuck up bro, get a fuckin job, like I don’t litter, but I don’t recycle how about that, I’m not trying to be the world’s fucking most ethical person, I’m not trying to be a jainist.
Me: People can find vegan easier through zero waste lifestyle if vegans are more accepting of freegan practices through consequentialism.
Like who are these people digging through dumpsters, like homeless people? What do you want from me, I don’t get it. How much meat do you eat? Do you enjoy that product of torture, blood and guts going into your mouth? To be honest dude it’s the plant-based doctors and innovation that’s going to make the world a better place.
Nick: Okay let me just hammer this point, because I kind of noticed a category error. There’s the point that yes that it’s amoral, it’s sending the wrong signal because you’re eating a corpse, people aren’t seeing the meta-ethical structure, they’re just seeing this persons eating a corpse, they don’t think a logical thought about it, so I would say of course you can make the argument for reduced suffering on the freegan diet, but like you’re making a category error,
Liam: It’s two different things, but hey, treating animals with respect the same way you would alive or dead, same way you would humans,
Me: Where's the proof though?
Nick: I don’t have proof other than personal anecdotes.
Liam: But it’s fucking culture, like footsoldier went through this stuff, it’s culture, monkey see monkey do, there’s a study that shows that if you eat meat then more people are going to eat meat as you do
Nick: Like bacon tho, bacon tho, bacon tho, now you have all these people saying bacon tho.
Liam: Like he’s saying we can feed homeless people and shit
Nick: Yea not an argument against veganism. I’ll concede that point
Liam: You’ll get moral points for that, I don’t give a shit about that, I don’t wish harm on other people, I’m not trying to run a fucking homeless shelter, I don’t give a fuck about those people, like for me my solution is why don’t I make a bunch of money and then hook people up with some bad ass vegan food, you know like create a local garden.
And also like provide me the evidence that you’re little bullshit freeganism is the best way to reduce the amount of waste, like maybe there’s something else I can be doing, maybe you work at a corporation who goes through a billion papers a year, and you’re like no you should do a recycling or some other solution you know with their time.
When you’re setting moral baselines, it’s all about what people not doing shit, if all of a sudden you’re telling people they’ve got to go do stuff, you’re infringing on freedoms and it’s not moral, you see what I’m saying?