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Additions to work in
brimstoneSalad wrote:Assuming moral value is based on consequences which can be defined in terms of natural things (like pleasure/pain happiness/suffering or fulfillment/violation of interests) then the results of careful thinking on these topics with good evidence converge.
That basically there are right (consistent) and wrong (inconsistent) normative conclusions to draw from those ethical theories.
And we can see by the differences between consequentialists that diasagreement with freeganism is rooted in misunderstandings and incorrect information.
But when it comes to other moral foundations, from the deontological to the intuitionistic etc. normative conclusions don't necessarily follow strictly from logic and evidence from the theories, but are rather subject to personal belief, feelings, and biases, so there's a much more broad and diverse interpretation.
Then I'd go over them.
And close it with a brief discussion on the issue of whether these beliefs resonate with you probably depends on your personal feelings and intuitions, but unless somebody already shares your intuitions it's very hard to use them in any prescriptive sense. That is, we can't compel others to agree with our personal intuitions, even if they agree with deontology or intuitionism etc. because they may have completely different takes on these.
Thus at least in terms of outreach where there are differences of intuition, arguments from naturalistic consequences (less suffering, etc.) are the best to bridge the gap, and the only ones that lead to undeniable conclusions (at least once we have all of the facts straight) vindicating freeganism.
You might also want to include discussion of virtue ethics right after consequentialism. How if somebody is eating freegan to save food from waste and reduce harm that's good, but if somebody is doing it for personal pleasure to enjoy meat that might not be, but also how we can tie this back into consequentialism where an unbroken addiction to meat may be harmful in itself and result in recidivism if a time comes when freegan meat isn't accessible and they buy it instead (although a consequentialist would want evidence that this is a probable outcome, rather than spite freeganism for speculation).
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Sources
Rest of the page is just resources I could work into the video:
For
• Vegan Gains
• Unnatural Vegan
• ModVegan
• Ethologic
• Shelbizleee
• Carb Up and Carpe Diem!
• EcoPeaceful
Misunderstands, but mostly on board
• LayVegan
Against
• Liam Anthony
• Gary Francione
• a-bas-le-ciel
• Chris Hines
• Banana Warrior Princess
• FootSoldier
• Jack Green
Not sure
• Reg Flowers
• A privileged vegan - 99% sure yes, but should ask as thrown into doubt by Reg's misunderstandings about food not bombs history
Examples
• Potato movement Greece
• Feedback
• St. Andrews Society
• APV – Black Panthers
• Activist Journeys - Calais
For
Vegan Gains
• How Much Food Can You Find In A Dumpster?
Unnatural Vegan
• Food Waste & Freeganism (Part 1: Why wasting food is so bad & simple ways to avoid it)
• Food Waste & Freeganism (Part 2: What is a freegan and why does it matter?)
• Let’s be better people (my new year’s resolutions for 2016)
• Let’s be better people (my new year’s resolutions for 2017)
• Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)
• Vegan Cheetah is not vegan (what is the definition of veganism?)
• Gary Francione doesn’t understand veganism or activism (dumpster diving & what it means to be vegan)
ModVegan
• Veganism’s Puritan Problem Part 1
• Dumpster Diving! Veganism’s Puritan Problem, Part 2
• Veganism's Eternal September & Vegan Gatekeeper Syndrome
• Why Veganism Is Not "THE" Solution
Ethologic
• Love this answer by Ethologic on freeganism
Shelbizleee
• Ulta Dumpster Diving Haul | $2000+ of PRODUCT
• ULTA Dumpster Dive Vlog | TIPS AND TRICKS
• Ulta Dumpster Diving Haul | PALETTE JACKPOT!!! ($500+)
Carb Up and Carpe Diem!
• BREAD FOR A VILLAGE-This Week’s Dumpster Diving Hauls!
• A BIG DUMPSTER DIVE HAUL!
• LIVE DUMPSTER DIVE FOR FOOD AND PET SUPPLIES!
EcoPeaceful
• Is Dumpster Diving for Cat Food an Ethical Option for Vegans?
Misunderstands, but mostly on board
Lay Vegan
• Vegans Can Eat Meat? Re: Edwins Generation
Against
Liam Anthony
Footsoldier
• Unnatural Vegan Isn’t Vegan (Freeganism Response)
à-bas-le-ciel
• Cannibals when Convenient: Edwin’s Generation & Unnatural Vegan.
• #DOGGATE: An Analysis (Vegan Gains vs. Vegan Cheetah)
• Veganism: Compassion, Contempt and Loathing.
• Vegan “Purity”: Collaborating with Hunters
Gary L. Francione
• Thought of the Day: “But it’s Just A Little Bit” and Dumpster Diving
• “Discarded” Animal Products: Dumpster Diving and Fried Potatoes II
Thunder Bay Personal Trainer – Logan Blake
• EDWINS GENERATION THINKS EATING MEAT IS VEGAN – THE NEW VEGAN UMBRELLA
Not sure
Reg Flowers
• I'm LIVE on YouNow December 17, 2017
A privileged vegan
• Resource based economy
Examples
ReelNews
• Rushes from Greece
Feedback
• Feedback Network
St. Andrews Society
• Gleaning 800lbs. of apples
APV
• My thoughts on Resource based economy and TZM
Activist Journeys
• Solidarity activism and situationist derive
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Transcripts
ModVegan
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3662#p35499
6. Whether or not you would eat it or regard it as healthy, do you consider "freegan" meat (from road kill, or garbage), or future in-vitro meat grown from cell cultures without animal products ("clean meat") as morally acceptable?
Yes.
.
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3651#p35494
It's so disappointing when vegans go after guys like Edwins Generation. He clearly means well, and he's not actively harming animals or exploiting them (as far as I could tell from the clips that UV used). He's just "impure", which is like catnip for angry vegans, who are thrilled to run him out of "club vegan" on a rail.
.
Mod Vegan: The Future Of Veganism & Vegan Technology
https://youtu.be/JD-GczXtcWE?t=2m56s
Chris:
I mean one thing I've always been interested in is obviously you know we call ourselves vegans and everything I mean when do you see the time when we are no longer vegan I mean do you think what do you think will happen to the term because once the world is vegan I mean are we still vegan or are we just normal no?
ModVegan:
I think that there will be a change there I'm not exactly I can't predict how that's going to occur what people are gonna call themselves in the future and I think that for ethical vegans once the world sort of accepts that exploitation is the wrong thing to do we will probably refer to people who exploit animals as exploiters and it's going to be like we call people racists today I mean that's probably going to be the same kind of epithet I'm not I don't really know what we're gonna do in that respect exactly the feeling is going to be kind of the same way people are gonna react instinctively against once it becomes a normal way of living people are going to be very suspicious of people who still exploit animals when they don't need
Chris:
have you seen the documentary on carnage British documentary yes there was a great line on Mary when that and someone was getting interviewed and they said oh you're just a vegan he said we're not vegans you're carnist yeah because you know that was kind of like the yeah the changing of the the use of language and stuff which I found really interesting because yeah I mean we've all got you know vegan is kind of like our identity in a ways and so be every strange if you strange to kind of shed that identity and just become
ModVegan:
exactly and I think it's exciting that people like you are excited about that like I'm excited for veganism some won't no longer be a big deal for everyone to just know that it's right not to exploit anyone unless you have to right yeah and I think this I'm excited for that I think there are some people who are a little afraid of losing that identity and I made a video about it this was last week like I I do think that that is a fear for some people um but I think we'll get over it at least I hope so yeah do we need more newbie vegans we need more people excited about not exploiting animals so I hope that we'll all be welcoming people who are who are giving up the animal product yeah definitely.
Mod Vegan: The Future Of Veganism & Vegan Technology
https://youtu.be/rrQSOCMyK9o?t=40m35s
What's your thoughts on eating plant-based foods that are fried or cooked with animal products for removing say cheese from a pasta salad and then eating the pasta
well I know this is very controversial but for me personally I think that it just depends on you as a person I think that it's about such that you don't want to obviously advertise animal products I certainly um I think that it's important to like if someone's serving an animal product and you eat it because it's there I think that's a really hard argument to make that you're doing something good for veganism by doing that I think that's a very hard argument to make that it's but it's a super good thing to do that but for the example the other day my husband ordered a vegan burger and they brought it and she was annoying cuz restaurant goes all the time and we usually send it back this time you just peeled it off and ate it because you didn't want to just throw away the burger so you know otherwise speaking so he doesn't mind if it touches his food I couldn't do that because I'm really lactose intolerant so I wouldn't be able to eat it anyway we need music I think it depends on the person you know if you can just take it off do that I don't really believe in wasting food I think if you can see from wasting food that's a good thing and you have to kind of judge the person you're working with to like sometimes if you're talking to someone and you know it's going to especially if you're at someone's house Bikram made something for you and it's got cheese on it and you can easily take it off it'll be way less offended if you just take it off and if you like tell them to pick it back you know use your common sense and your do what's right for you for your health and and as far as the oil goes again I think that's a personal issue I think it has more do with your your disgust response I personally am okay with it I don't think that it's hurting any extra animals so I have no problem with it like I ordered a burger and fries the other day a company here in town started their a burger place I think it's called like flame burger or something and they just added a vegan burger with a vegan bun and the fries are or no it's the burger with cooked on the same grill that's with the other burgers but I was like you know it's okay because I'm telling them that this is an important thing and I'm encouraging them to make more of it I think Gary Yourofsky has a similar stance on those kinds of things weed stuff when I can but I'm not gonna be too fussy on it you know like I said for cooking someone on the the same grill um I have like a couple specs or something I mean this yeah it's not - I mean you you want to encourage them to keep doing a vegan product I mean yeah you can make the suggestion oh maybe you could do this but I mean yeah yeah I think you know you want to encourage them you know if you if you've got to be a good kind of example of a vegan as well if you go in there and just be nice and polite and stuff and you know you kind of respect the fact that they're trying I think that's a really good thing to do yeah I think you know we need to help them help us kind of you know yeah I think is the main thing
______
____________
Liam Anthony
Liam directed me to some comments of his on the Footsoldier video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9tZGBa0x4I&t=1089s
Liam Anthony
For the people who don't realize there are two parts to the vegan society's definition.
Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
There are many ways to embrace vegan living. Yet one thing all vegans have in common is a plant-based diet avoiding all animal foods such as meat (including fish, shellfish and insects), dairy, eggs and honey - as well as products like leather and any tested on animals.
Footsoldier
yeah sure, that is the logical dietary conclusion of the primary statement written out, however UV and freegans think they can add an asterisk because the victim was already murdered.
TheNewHope
yet i have to disagree a bit "avoiding all animal foods" is still overruled by "as far as is possible and practicable" if one eats roadkill (which i don't consider a food) in a survival situation where you had no other choice then you would still be vegan.
This situation will probably never happen to us but in theory i would consider someone vegan to eat a dead animal that died by accident if it was life or death situation for him.
Liam Anthony
Objectively speaking. By any definition. Vegan Society, dictionary, or colloquial. A vegan is someone who does not knowingly consume animal products. This is objective.
People throw around the vegan society definition of veganism but forget the second half. Seriously, check out their website.
It is NOT IMMORAL to eat road kill etc... But it isnt vegan. Vegans do not view animals as products for consumption dead or alive. This is a VALUE that is unique to the vegan in-group. And the practice of abstaining from animal products in any context is the identifier someone is vegan. its a baseline.
Vegan values are in line with a reduce harm approach, which is a "more moral" life style but adds the additional axiom of not knowingly consuming animal products.
So, yes. someone could have a highly specialized diet that includes road kill and trash, and the potential amount of "harm points" associated with their diet could be less than a typical vegan diet.
but based on every definition of veganism. Vegan Society, Dictionary, and colloquial. Vegans abstain from consuming animal products IN ADDITION to living a lifestyle that reduces harm.
Liam Anthony
also, in an extreme survival situation. ethics, principles, morality, values, etc.... isn't typically someone's main concern. And I am assuming that if they made it through that EXTREME situation they would go back to being a vegan. and I wouldn't hold it against them.
Footsoldier
I'd also add that the desert island scenaro may be consistent in a human context: if you are stranded on an island with no other food and there is an old man with you who is almost dead anyway, you have two choices:
- kill him and eat him and fuck morals
- don't eat him and all die and keep your morals
this applies in a human or animal context because it is survival. Meat eaters cannot argue from this perspective though because the are generally not in a survival context.
Liam Anthony
I really like how you used counter culture to describe veganism. First time I've heard it explained like that.
_______________
Reg Flowers
Me: I'm making my first video and the topic is freeganism so asking youtubers whether [or not (they read it wrong to fatal miscommunication results] they would eat waste animal products would they consider it moral?
Reg: Yeah I'm like I don’t feel like I want to, if you're asking because you want to know what I think me personally I feel like anytime I present flesh from an animal or a product that came from an animal as food I'm buying into and promoting maintaining an attitude that animals are objects right so yeah I just I don't want to it's to me I don't see that as that's not it's not a question of like whether it's it's moral to eat it or not moral to eat it it's to me it is not food it's not food so why would I wouldn't eat it any more than if you know a person fell dead in front of me I didn't kill them it would be edible if I cooked it what I do it what I do it I wouldn't do it because I not see a human being s food so however if someone brought me a glass of breast milk that I might you know I might consume that because I at least that's food right that's fruit it's a foodstuff it's intended to be consumed right so I don't know I don't know about the whole freaking thing
Me: Whether or not they [would] eat animals themselves? like Food Not Bombs tabling rescued food
Reg: Now I'm a big fan of Food Not Bombs and I don't know cos are you part of Food Not Bombs Food Not Bombs at least in Detroit and the group that I'm familiar with they I think because they want to provide food that most people that that isn't alienating they lean towards products that are vegan and in my experience at least the group of Food Not Bombs that I was working with I have worked with and the Food Not Bombs that provided food to the to last year's pedagogy and theater of the oppressed conference all of that food was vegan but they they will often include things like bread even if that bread has like trace milk products in it so that's not you know I've I've not known of a Food Not Bombs meal that contained animal flesh however and like I said the experience I have with Food Not Bombs the event that they were catering for us was the event that they were catering for us was was vegan so listen you know I'm looking down at my phone and I'm seeing that it's ringing and I think I want to grab this call I'm not gonna actually grab it but I'm gonna call this person right back at someone calling me from Detroit probably looking for me to return so all of that said it's been great hanging out with all of you today it's been an interesting it's been an interesting live stream I bet this is gonna get I feel like this was gonna this one's gonna get a lot of views.
Me: Yes vegan or vegetarian in the mandate/website, the founder of it came up with the term freegan.
Reg: Yeah I mean, I think it's definitely worth having a conversation about.
_______
Ethologic (Tim)
Love this answer by Ethologic on Freeganism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eMF8LNpSMw
Banana Warrior Princess:
Vegan/freegan, oh god that unnatural vegan video, it was really I think I don't like freeganism I just don’t get it, I understand the arguments for it but . . .
I understand freegan to mean that you dumpster dive for things and it's got meat or dairy or eggs in it you can have it because you're not paying for it so you're not contributing to the industry that's how I how I understand freegan.
I still don't agree I mean I understand that you're not contributing this stuff but you're still kind of saying or promoting the fact that you're complicit with their death because you wouldn't even eat a sandwich with dogs meat or anything in it so why would
Chris Hines:
Yeah we had this conversation the other day didn't we and I said like as much as eating animal products that are free is you know isn't acceptable in the way that you're not paying for the enemy if you are eating them around people you're still promoting the fact that animals of food that say well it's no evidence to say that they'll say that there's no evidence to say that and why are you eating that food it promotes the use of their quality system is not there's no evidence to say that it will increase sales of meat doesn't work for the vegan message because you know it doesn't try to decrease either
Banana Warrior Princess:
You just shouldn’t do it, yeah.
Chris Hines:
It still means that their food, it’s still saying animals are food, when we should be saying no animals are not food.
Tim:
So Liam makes a pretty good argument, so I get into this with him a lot because I'm pro-freeganism, I think it's, like I watch this documentary called Dive! and what this guy does with the food that he collects out of the dumpster deeds and to me it's like if you talk to people he seemed to not let me feed his family and then shelters with all the shit he collects when he's dumped her it's really amazing it's a 50 minute documentary totally worth watching. . .
So he's doing it's great, but Liam makes a really compelling argument and in that kinda what you're driving actress it's that um you wouldn't be fine with people eating corpses human corpses right they're dead so if you're dead you don't possess a body right you don't have a body because you're so the body becomes a sub without without the life, without life a subject becomes an object, would you guys agree with that, a corpse to me is not a person any more
Banana Warrior Princess:
But it still has meaning to somebody else.
Tim:
well I mean but if they're dead it just becomes animal matter at that point that's just the way I see if they're dead the person's gone the person for the person to be a present consciousness and life needs to exist so without those two things there's no person left and it becomes it goes from being a subject to an object
But even still even if even if we agree that's truth we would never agree that it's okay to eat corpses because they would normalize cannibal do cannibalism forget the health argument with normalize cannibalism so Liam's argument essentially becomes we shouldn't be normalizing eating roadkill or eating any animals no matter how we get it because you're normalizing it you're making you're saying it's okay to do this in our culture and you should never make a statement that it's okay to eat dead bodies.
So and and I I agree with him even though I do support people doing the freeganism thing because I'd rather not see all those animals just go into a dumpster when there's humans who are starving to death.
Like it's it's not a tenable choice it's certainly not the best situation to be in but you know if you watch this documentary I think you'll be more sympathetic to it because you see the fuckin amount of food this guy pulls out of dumpsters and it's all good food you're like holy shit all of this is just getting thrown into landfills well there's people starving to death.
A better solution would be to go dumpster diving, get all the meat, get all the vegan stuff, you keep the vegan stuff, send the meat to zoos.
______
Liam Anthony and Ethologic on twitter:
https://twitter.com/Liamdoesit/status/939659694943166465
(bit difficult to follow as they don't stick to one thread, and limited by characters)
Liam Anthony @Liamdoesit
are you vegan if you knowingly consume animal products. I.e. Eating your friends leftover chicken wings?
Ethologic
Replying to @Liamdoesit
uf. I don't like the dichotomous options. Was your friend going to throw those out? Is it merely the consumption of the product that is the problem? What if you gave the chicken wings to your dog instead of you directly consuming them?
Liam Anthony
Another example of why vegans shouldnt own pets.
Ethologic
Again, I disagree. Do you think a shelter dog is better of dead? What if the shelter dog is instead adopted by a meat eater? Will the dog eat more or less other animals in that scenario? You're missing a lot of nuance.
Liam Anthony
Exploit is to use as a resource and gain benefit from. Vegans don't look at animals as a resource. Dead or alive.
Liam Anthony
You can say eating road kill is ethical. But you can't say it's vegan.
Ethologic
Dead things aren't subjects though. You can't exploit a subject that is dead, by then it is merely and object.
Liam Anthony
...... Bro. You can exploit a resource. You can exploit new technology. You can exploit the fast check out times at DMV A as opposed to DMV B.To exploit is to take advantage for your benefit. has nothing to do with conciousness of what ur exploiting.
---
Liam Anthony
Vegans don't view animals as products. Their corpses, included.
Ethologic
And eating roadkill doesn't make it a product. I'm not talking about a market around eating corpses.
Liam Anthony
I didn't say it was a commodity to be traded and sold. Although paleo is getting popular. I said you are using it as a resource to derive benefit from.
Ethologic
I think you're drawing unnecessary absolutes. If we followed your strict definition of veganism, no one could be vegan.
Liam Anthony
My strict definition of veganism? Don't knowingly consume animal products. Boom. You're vegan. I don't think that's so strict.
Ethologic
And, again, it is about exploiting animals, not consuming them. If you exploit animals in any way, per your definition, you're not vegan. Therefore, if you eat any plant that requires insect pollination, you are not vegan.
Liam Anthony
Eating road kill is a direct action that can be avoided.
Ethologic
You don't need to eat, apples, guave, cauliflower, cashews, almonds, pistachios, pomegranates, peaches, nectarines, avocados, onions, oranges, green beans, sunflower oil..... shall I keep going?
Liam Anthony
Vegans don't eat animal products
Ethologic
All of those are plants that require bee pollination. How is exploiting the labor of insects vegan, but eating the already naturally dead corpse not?
Liam Anthony
By any definition vegans don't consume animal products. If you want to consume animal products. You ain't in the club.
Ethologic
I don't care about the club. I care about ethics. And again, if you eat almonds, or any of the other plants I mentioned, you're not vegan by your own standard. Unless the exploitation part doesn't matter.
Liam Anthony
This is why I don't like the vegan society's definition of veganism. I take a more Jeff Nelson approach. Anyone who doesn't knowingly consume animal products is vegan.
Ethologic
I hate their definition. For all the reasons you just laid out. In any case, you do know now. So are you going to stop eating those things or are you comfortable with supporting some animal exploitation?
Liam Anthony
Insects who pollinate plants are engaged in a win/win relationship with us. They do their insect thing. I get avocados. There's nothing win/win with your friends left over chicken wings.
Ethologic
Okay, but someone could claim that about all animal agriculture. Who are you to decide what is a win-win? And it is a win-win for me to eat my friends leftover chicken wings if they were going to be thrown away anyhow, which was my initial contention with your question.
Liam Anthony
Wasn't win-win for the chicken. Eating that chicken communicates to your friend that the behavior of ordering chicken and consuming is ok. Don't underestimate the power of group membership.
Ethologic
And in your scenario, the chicken has already become an object, and I would not be creating an incentive to produce more. And I can say eating meat is okay while also maintaining that intentionally killing animals for food is wrong.
Liam Anthony
And I would argue that is a shit way to convince people to quit looking at animals as a products.
Ethologic
Again, I could say the same about almonds. I think reducing your contribution to the industry that directly exploits animals is what matters. In fact, you may be able to convince more people because it may actually appear to be less extreme than strict veganism.
Liam Anthony
Also, to get very pedantic. If your goal is to live as morally as possible. And morality is about not causing harm. Consuming Animal products causes harm to the individual. Which is easily avoided by not consuming said animal.
Ethologic @TimJIvey
Replying to @Liamdoesit
If a guy jumps on a grenade to save his comrades, has he done something immoral?
---
Liam Anthony
Replying to @TimJIvey
Vegans don't view animals as products. Their corpses, included.
Ethologic
That's an assertion. Is eating roadkill better or worse than killing an insect? What about a plant? It seems you're implicitly arguing it's worse to consume something that is dead than it is to consume something that is alive.
Liam Anthony
That's literally the definition of exploitation.
Ethologic
It is wrong to exploit a brick to build a house?
Liam Anthony
It's still exploitation. And vegans don't view animals as a resource to gain benefit alive or dead.
Ethologic
Again, you're making assertions. You're not the President of Veganism Liam. lol
Liam Anthony
Look at ever definition of veganism
Ethologic
"As far as practicable and possible..." You can cause LESS animal exploitation by eating roadkill than you could from eating many plant foods.
Ethologic
So if the goal is to avoid as much exploitation as possible, eating roadkill is a very viable option.
Liam Anthony
Read the rest of the page of the vegan society bro. They clear state vegans don't consume animal products of any kind.
Ethologic
But they do! That's my point. You are directly exploiting the labor of insects. To me, it is far worse to knowingly exploit a living animal than to exploit an already dead animal.
Liam Anthony
Clearly you are missing the point of my argument. I'm not arguing the ethics of a person who consumes road kill. There is more to life than trying to reduce harm. Vegans are a group of people who value not consuming corpses. If you consume corpse you ain't apart of the club.
Ethologic
You're not getting my point either. Who gives a shit about being in a club? I already said group membership is irrelevant to me if not for ethics. You've basically just convinced me that veganism isn't about making the most ethical decisions. I'm no longer Vegan.
Liam Anthony
But what do I do with my membership jacket?
Ethologic
lol