Unnatural Vegan + à-bas-le-ciel collaboration!

[brimstoneSalad]

Interesting.

It's so bizarre to see how Eisel misunderstood (and still misunderstands) the issue.
He can't seem to understand the relevance in criticizing behavior, and has to think UV is criticizing his scholarship of Buddhism (she never likes to talk about things she doesn't understand, that would be very out of character, but criticizing how people behave is very in character and consistent with her video).
It's like he has to assume and take it to the most personal level possible when she was basically just saying "Don't be a jerk to people and then refuse to back up what you say with an argument" (presumably the best case is to back up your argument AND not be a jerk, but either one or the other is at least acceptable).

I know Eisel later (after that bridge burning where he "apologized" for hurting her delicate feelings which if I were to guess only pissed her off) finally released some more substantive videos on the pet stuff responding to specific points. If he had just done that originally there never would have been a problem, and maybe even a back and forth on youtube having a serious debate on the topic.
I know UV has said she won't respond to people she doesn't like because she doesn't want to promote them, so Eisel kind of ruined that possibility of an interesting exchange by being a Jerk and not supporting his arguments to begin with.

I kind of wish Eisel would apologize to her for what he actually did (rather than the bullshit "sorry I hurt your delicate female feelings" nonsense), so we would have the chance to see more interesting videos on the subject.
I doubt it'd ever happen.

[NonZeroSum]

______

Going to do some editing and moving posts around, bare with me.

______

On making the personal/private - public
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKvzuUGPAug&list=PLqRNOagVZDVecZfaEKTGR89m6BftkNZmf&index=1

•I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.
•We Can Change the Game: Freelee, Durianrider & HHV (Happy, Healthy Vegan).
•Rape allegations are a very serious matter: Norvegan, Durianrider, etc.
•Just the Drama (Excerpt from a Patreon-Only Podcast)
•Life isn’t fair, save the planet anyway. (vegan / vegans / veganism)
•My Feud with Unnatural Vegan: How & Why.
•Why A-Bas-Le-Ciel CHANGED His Name!? Interview Pt.3
•An interview “for the future of the vegan movement”.
•Why I won't tell you more about my baby


_____________

On critique

•On Critique Itself (vs. Unnatural Vegan)
•[Video:] The People vs. Durianrider: The Deeper Significance of the Case.
•Oh, believe me, I’m still determined to have youtube comments “off”…
•The “No Comments” Debate in a Nutshell.
•Unnatural Vegan is Worse than Durianrider, IMHO.
•Just the Drama (Excerpt from a Patreon-Only Podcast)
•I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.
•“Community and Discord”, an open-ended discussion.
•[Video:] Vegan Civil War: Unnatural Vegan Hates Me, I Guess.
•Unnatural Vegan Hates Me, I Guess. (Vegan Civil War?)
•[Text:] Unnatural Vegan Officially Hates Me (I Guess).
•Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).
•Defamation Destroys the Vegan Movement From Within: Jeff Nelson, Durianrider, Vegan Cheetah.
•Vegan Youtube “Activism”: the Politics of Performance, the Future of an Illusion.
•Vegan Idiots United: Nina and Randa are Not Beautiful, Vegan Cheetah is Not Tall.


____________

On living with domesticated animals

•Why Omnivore Outrage Over the Yulin Dog Meat Festival is Okay
•Tentative Vegan #1: What is Tentative Veganism?
•Tentative Vegan #2: Animal Use vs Exploitation
•Using Animals: Does Consent Matter? (follow-up to tentative vegan #2) Tentative Vegan: What is the Point? (vegan advocacy…again)
•Vegans and the Indigenous Issue: Hunting, Domestication & the Concept of Evil.
•Domestication vs. “the Wild”: Vegans & the A.R. Paradigm
•Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil.
•Pet Ownership as SLAVERY (vegan / vegans / veganism)
•On Historical Nihilism (历史虚无主义) and Having a Philosophy in General
•Is Owning Pets Vegan? (vegans alienating everybody, including each other)
•Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)
•Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).
•Stop castrating dogs and cats, you twisted sicko.
•Your Cat Hates You: Unnatural Vegan is Wrong, and it Really Matters.
•YOUR CAT HATES YOU: yet more on pets/domestication.
•I Became A Dog Once
•7 ways vegans alienate everybody, including each other (bad vegan activism)
•[Other voices:] Vegan Gains is Against Pet Ownership. Here's Why.
•[Other voices:] Jae Costly reflects on pets for disabled people, trained “service animals”, etc.
•Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.
•The Vegan Cheetah is RIGHT About Pets - My response!
•Castration: vegan excuses for enslaving animals. Unnatural Vegan.
•Stop castrating dogs and cats, stop making excuses for it.
•Autonomy vs Dignity, Wildlife in Veganism and Ecology in the 21st century
•Riddle of the Lion's Roar Animal Sanctuaries, Zoos & Wildlif
•Dogs vs. Wolves: Vegan Ethics and the Future of Activism.
•Zoos and/or/as the Meaning of Life Conversation with Jae Costl
•Zoopolis: a NON-VEGAN Political Theory of Animal Rights
•Real Animal-Lovers Don't Own Animals, Don't Raise Animals, Don't Keep Animals.
•Anthropomorphism, Domestication (of Pets) vs. the Wildlife Management Paradigm.
•Q&A about my “Core Message”, Domestication vs. the Wild, etc., with Alejandro.
•Veganism is NOT a Social Justice Movement.
•Come On, FhqwhFgads: Vegan Gains Feeds His Dog Meat.
•#DOGGATE: An Analysis (Vegan Gains vs. Vegan Cheetah)
•Vegan Gains bought a wolf dog from a breeder & now feeds her meat
•Can Lucy go to a wild wolf sanctuary
•Why vegans shouldn't shop (adopt don't shop, don't buy from a breeder)
•7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)
•Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?
•Is Destiny a psychopath? Or just delusional? (thoughts on the Vegan Gains debate)
•Captive Animals ARE NOT Companion Animals (Unnatural Vegan is NOT Vegan)
•Will farm animal species go extinct if the world goes vegan? If so, does it matter?
•Nihilism If animals don't have animal rights, why do humans
•What If The World Became Vegan? (BBC's subtle anti-vegan message)
•New Values Politics, Personhood, Meaning of Life
•What will happen to farmed animals if the world goes vegan?
•My Feud with Unnatural Vegan How & Why.
•Life is Suffering Have Babies Anyway. (Against Anti-Natalism
•Critique of "Terrorism Lite": Mic the Vegan, Glenn Greenwald, etc.


___________

On consequentialism (Singer and effective altruism vs. historical nihilism)

•Debunking misconceptions about me (some are silly, some are not, it's a weird video)
•[Mirror Jump Cuts] Vegan vs Vegan: “Ask Yourself” Boxing Match in Chiang Mai or GTFO
•Unnatural Vegan vs. Ethical Vegans; Insanity vs. Sanity.
•Unnatural Vegan vs. Ethical Vegans; Insanity vs. Sanity.
•Measuring “Effective Activism”? (Brainstorming for a Better Vegan Movement)
•(This is NOT a shallow gossip/drama video!) Unnatural Vegan, Fully Raw Kristina, & Peter Singer.
•No, You’re NOT Vegan: Unnatural Vegan, Fully Raw Kristina, & Peter Singer
•Utilitarianism is rubbish, innit? (Philosophy & Politics, I.M.H.O.)
•Vegans: Beyond Abolitionism (Beyond PETA & Peter Singer, too)
•Vegan Activism I.R.L., Beyond Peter Singer & Potluck Dinners.
•“Effective Altruism” is Rubbish, Innit? (Veganism / Ecology / Animal Rights)
•Alcohol & Caffeine: Unnatural Vegan is WRONG
•Fully Raw Kristina Wears Leather Shoes, Regularly, It Seems.


____________

On community

I might do a bonus on community, discord and movement towards normalcy or new community paradigms if I get round to it.

•Vegans: I don’t respect my audience, I don’t respect your questions, and I don’t respect you.
•TMI TAG to Celebrate 25,000 Subs!
•On Community (vs. Unnatural Vegan)
•Why I'm so "mean" to other vegans
•Militant Vegans, Real Talk: Sorsha, Freelee, Unnatural Vegan & Pewdiepie.
•PewDiePie is right. Vegans are bad for veganism. (Sorsha, vegan youtubers & bad vegan advocacy)


___________

Collaboration

The uneasy a-bas-le-ciel - Unnatural Vegan collaboration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Wu4-DJDio&list=PLqRNOagVZDVebb1D2QtTmmaYc__OHasVC

•Activism & Outcomes: Unnatural Vegan vs. DxE (Direct Action Everywhere)
•Freelee is Wrong, Unnatural Vegan is Right (and it’s a problem)
•The potato diet is not healthy (and it can't "cleanse" anything)
•Durianrider & Freelee’s lies = much more than just “drama” (à-bas-le-ciel & self-policing veganism)
•I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.
•Vegans vs. Gerson Therapy (Unnatural Vegan is Still Right)
•Morality is Always Inconvenient (Unnatural Vegan is STILL Right)
•Colonialism & Genocide (vs. "Ask Yourself")


____________

Discussion

Pet ownership
•Pet ownership (wiki)
•ABLC's "ethical veganism"
•7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (UV video)
•Is “owning” a cat vegan?
•Snails
•Having pets (again)
•Pets that are obligate carnivores/omnivores…
•owning lizards
•Feeding your pets Vegan?!
•The future of pets
•What do I feed the animals in my house?
•Pet/Dog Ownership
•Pet Ownership (Animal Domestication)
•Confinement isn’t always cruel – possible example
•Advice wanted on care of rescued chicken, and ducks.
•Companion Animal Care

Critique
•Vegan infighting and movement unity; response to ModVegan

Consequentialism
•We're all fake vegans. Except Francione. According to Francione.
•A-bas-la-ciel VS. Durianrider
•"The Rational Vegan" is anything but rational
•Palm oil

[NonZeroSum]

____________________

The uneasy à-bas-le-ciel - Unnatural Vegan collaboration
https://youtu.be/a-Wu4-DJDio

It was a thing once upon a time! Although UV holds the position of not mentioning smaller channels on youtube that they don't recommend for concern of popularizing their channel, Eisel mentions her ever so often and sends a tweet their way.

They fight the good fight against diet pseudoscience together, but the kind words weren't to last. They still cover much of the same topics, even covering the same response videos like to Mayim Bialik.

Next up is their disagreements, debate video. Hopefully the discussion can spawn off many wiki articles. And Ask Yourself video still up coming, just developing video editing skills, and little time with taking lots of work to save up atm so just pursuing what's taking my interest in my leisure.

____________________

à-bas-le-ciel + Unnatural Vegan Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Wu4-DJDio&list=PLqRNOagVZDVebb1D2QtTmmaYc__OHasVC

à-bas-le-ciel vs. Unnatural Vegan Debate
https://activistjourneys.wordpress.com/a-bas-le-ciel-vs-unnatural-vegan/

à-bas-le-ciel - Full list of videos - Categorized
https://activistjourneys.wordpress.com/a-bas-le-ciel-categorised/

Unnatural Vegan - Full list of videos - Categorized:
https://activistjourneys.wordpress.com/unnatural-vegan/

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
*References*

Videos:
• Activism & Outcomes: Unnatural Vegan vs. DxE (Direct Action Everywhere)
• Freelee is Wrong, Unnatural Vegan is Right (and it’s a problem)
• The potato diet is not healthy (and it can't "cleanse" anything)
• Durianrider & Freelee’s lies = much more than just “drama” (à-bas-le-ciel & self-policing veganism)
• I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.
• Vegans vs. Gerson Therapy (Unnatural Vegan is Still Right)
• Morality is Always Inconvenient (Unnatural Vegan is STILL Right)
• Colonialism & Genocide (vs. "Ask Yourself")

Music:
• Blackalicious - The Hourglass
• Raekwon ft. M.O.P. & Kool G Rap - Ill Figures

Pictures:
http://twitter.com/eiselmazard

[NonZeroSum]

___________________

Unnatural Vegan vs à-bas-le-ciel: on making the personal/private - public
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKvzuUGPAug&list=PLqRNOagVZDVecZfaEKTGR89m6BftkNZmf

Previous videos in the series:

The uneasy à-bas-le-ciel - Unnatural Vegan collaboration:
https://youtu.be/a-Wu4-DJDio

More condensed material on the issues of debate between them to look forward to:

1.Domestication: All the arguments back and forth over living with domesticated animals, where questions have been answered and reasons diverge.

2. Consequentialism (Singer and effective altruism vs. historical nihilism).

3. Critique: Rounding out on how well both parties give reasonable critique.

As I said in my last video description; Eisel still makes positive mention of UV when they make important content like against quack cancer therapy, I'm not at all optimistic that UV will engage with Eisel even on their disagreements unless he gets up to 100K subs anytime soon, but I can try to bring light to the public record and open the issues between them and important to the future direction of the vegan movement up for discussion.

_______________

à-bas-le-ciel vs. Unnatural Vegan On Privacy Playlist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV42ZGJg7xs&list=PLqRNOagVZDVecZfaEKTGR89m6BftkNZmf

à-bas-le-ciel vs. Unnatural Vegan Debate
https://activistjourneys.wordpress.com/a-bas-le-ciel-vs-unnatural-vegan/

à-bas-le-ciel - Full list of videos - Categorized
https://activistjourneys.wordpress.com/a-bas-le-ciel-categorised/

Unnatural Vegan - Full list of videos - Categorized:
https://activistjourneys.wordpress.com/unnatural-vegan/

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
*References*

Videos:
•I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.
•We Can Change the Game: Freelee, Durianrider & HHV (Happy, Healthy Vegan).
•Rape allegations are a very serious matter: Norvegan, Durianrider, etc.
•Just the Drama (Excerpt from a Patreon-Only Podcast)
•Life isn’t fair, save the planet anyway. (vegan / vegans / veganism)
•My Feud with Unnatural Vegan: How & Why.
•Why I won't tell you more about my baby
•Why A-Bas-Le-Ciel CHANGED His Name!? Interview Pt.3

Music: Nightmares on Wax - Flip ya Lid, You Wish, Les Nuis and 70s 80s.

Pictures: https://www.patreon.com/a_bas_le_ciel/posts


_______________

Full Transcript

[On privacy]

I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.

So Eisel sent me the link to this video I guess soon after it was posted at the time it was unlisted it was only for his patrons and I responded via email by expressing you know my concerns are the concerns that I had with the video as well as similar behavior that I had seen from him and he responded to my response via email and also with the public video that many of you have already seen called unnatural vegan hates me I guess egon civil war question mark uh so here we are you know he have as L put me in a really awkward situation you know what should have been just a private correspondence between him and me has now been made public it's a position that's made even more awkward by the fact that he has not granted me permission to share the email exchange in this video because I don't feel comfortable talking about something that you guys don't actually have access to I won't discuss the content of the emails here except for my original response to his original video the pet ownership video which you can see right here because this is what he's talking about in his unnatural vegan hates me video.

We Can Change the Game: Freelee, Durianrider & HHV (Happy, Healthy Vegan).

How is it that so many people think that I exposed private emails between myself and unnatural vegan where is there even one video here on YouTube of me putting up private emails between us she put up one email in one video her own her own email and she reported correctly that when she asked for my permission to post private emails I said no because I think that's immoral and inappropriate and counterproductive.

[Text:] Unnatural Vegan Officially Hates Me (I Guess).

Censored
Hey, just a question for Eisel: Was the message that U.V. sent to you at the beginning of this post a private one? I ask this because in your recent video titled “We Can Change the Game: VC, FL, DR & HHV” you talk about how “people think that [you] exposed private e-mails between [yourself] and U.V.” and you claim you never posted any videos exposing private e-mails (which is true because the post above is not a video, obviously) but would this text post containing a copy-and-paste version of a message that U.V. sent to you still count as exposing a private message? I know it’s a small detail but this post jumped into my mind when I was listening to that part of your video.

Eisel Mazard
Yeah, this is the same e-mail that she shared (publicly) in her video. My actual problem with what Swayze did (and threatened to do) is not really the “privacy” of the e-mails, but would be sort of boring to explain: she threatened to denounce me on the basis of my having been (allegedly) a lousy scholar of Buddhism (something spurious, even if it were true), and she was (all the while) denying that she was upset with me, and denying that what she was doing was _ad hominem_. Well, yeah, you can claim that I present the dangers of leading a Durianrider-esque cult (and “echo-chamber”) while claiming that there’s nothing _ad hominem_ in saying that… and you can claim that there’s nothing _ad hominem_ about insulting my scholarship of Buddhism (something she’s read nothing about, knows nothing about, and that has zero salience to the issue being debated)… but… So, it is really a knot of issues (ultimately ethical) that can’t be referred to the word “privacy”. She did demonstrate to me, very fully, that she is (1) stupid, (2) immoral and (3) dishonest, as stated in the video. What I demonstrated to her is an open question: people choose to completely ignore the positive content of my 15 minute video (with “Civil War”) in the title –but it really has a lot of positive content (and U.V.’s videos on this subject have ZERO, I.M.H.O.). Of course, I’ve made many other videos linked to this topic before and since, blah blah blah.

We Can Change the Game: Freelee, Durianrider & HHV (Happy, Healthy Vegan).

How is it that so many people think I posted a private emails to myself and Ann began in that dispute I never did and it was completely privacy I never been any public statement but I never should have but she posted publicly male she took my public correspondence and made long videos denouncing me and installed in my character

Vegann is no longer a member of this discussion forum.

Censored
Can someone give a tl;dr on what happened? So VegAnn was hem hawing with Joe Best and being all "idk you make some good points" about his videos on Eisel?

Eisel Mazard
Yeah, basically, Liz, Ann and I spoke directly (via Skype) while I was in Thailand, and patched up what had been (before then) a rocky/bad relationship. We agreed to ground-rules, I let her join this patreon, and it seemed like we were on a positive (friendly) basis. I discovered that she was continuing to "boost" (i.e. support) channels that are devoted to denouncing me (and this is something we specifically talked about via Skype, previously) --even when she knew that what they were saying could not possibly be true (from this Patreon, or from talking to me, etc.). Basically, I told her that I could possibly have a Skype session to "straighten her out" every two weeks, and that she was too stupid to play the game she was playing (i.e., "playing both sides"). So, we could have left it at that, but she made a 40 minute video denouncing me as a cult leader, so (as a result of her using my private e-mails to denounce me) it became an internet sensation for 5 minutes. The 5 minutes are now over.

Censored
Yeah, I get why you're upset then, I really do. I'm assuming her argument is that there's nothing wrong with keeping an open mind and being impartial. Unfortunately it isn't that simple: if one side is lying and slandering or so painfully stupid that they can't comprehend simple sentences and the other side is defending themselves, even taking a "moderate" middle ground is an injustice. And that's not even mentioning the simple yet often unfortunately overlooked concept of loyalty between friends.

Rape allegations are a very serious matter: Norvegan, Durianrider, etc.

So I'm starting at the end of the story here this is an email I received today and this is not the first time that Michael has threatened to make our private email public apparently it's going ahead with it and so that is what has forced me to make this video sharing private correspondence with you the audience cuz he's gonna do it anyway and he's made it very clear that he's gonna do this to try to blacken my character or show everyone what a terrible manipulative person I am again it's not as if I'm out here even disputing that I'm a terrible person but go ahead Michael this I'm showing first because it is the reason why I'm sharing correspondents in the rest this video that otherwise I would have treated as extremely sensitive extremely private and would have taken to my grave with me as a secret.


[1. Inevitability of dirt spreading]

[Text:] Unnatural Vegan Officially Hates Me (I Guess).

Censored
What was the original message you sent to her about that got her so riled up? Seems unusual for Swayze to react like this?

Eisel Mazard
No, there was nothing upsetting in the message: I think she's upset partially because she cares (more than I would have guessed) about Peter Singer (and unrelated issue, TBH). You don't get a sense of someone's character from videos made while reading a script: in her (latest/ongoing) e-mail correspondence with me, TBH, she's been a complete scumbag. She says she has basically googled the whole internet to find proof of what an asshole I am from comments on Buddhist discussion forums (from years ago, etc.), and that she's going to put this together in a character-assassination video. Uh… and her audience is going to respect that? Those are the sorts of tactics I'm familiar with from Durianrider, frankly, and it is amazing to me that she sees nothing wrong with it (especially given the tone and content of my 15-minute follow up video).

I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.

In addition, this is not the only time that Eisel has exhibited this type of behavior just one example I'm a member of the skeptic vegan discretion group on Facebook it's a closed group and someone a few weeks ago referenced a thread that I Zell had started about Buddhism and meditation like about a year ago so I checked it out and I saw he shares in the thread he shares a video that he made about the topic about meditation Buddhism a couple people disagreed with his view and instead of countering their arguments as I'll insulted them and then left the group

[Text:] Unnatural Vegan Officially Hates Me (I Guess).

Censored
Any chance you'd post the discussion that happened in the group Unnatural Vegan talks about? Otherwise this conversation here doesn't make much sense...

Eisel Mazard
Nah, the forum she's alluding to is of zero significance, and what I said there (also) is of zero significance. She was really just grasping at straws to demonstrate what an asshole I supposedly am. However, I'm actually not offended by the idea that others perceive me (thus) as an asshole: if you talk about issues like Buddhism, First Nations, Cambodian politics, etc., many people are going to hate you (no matter what you say, no matter how you say it, etc.).

Just the Drama (Excerpt from a Patreon-Only Podcast)

As we've seen lately with with unnatural vegan a lot of people assumed I had a lot of common ground with the natural vegan I never did I wasn't under any any illusions about that um but you know you get to see what what she's really made of where she really stands in these issues and you get to see just how rapidly she resorts to denouncing me comparing me to durianrider etc when you know there's a substantive difference of opinion there and when I'd already apologized for hurting her feelings both an email and here on YouTube etc you want to talk about the substance of the game but she's playing a very different game.

My Feud with Unnatural Vegan: How & Why.

But like you know in my situation with her I mean whether or not I handled it well or stupidly or whatever I mean I'm not above fault I'm not above criticism in this you know I could have done better but it's like different but like I still can mention this and thinking of you know comment online recently . . . so your reasoning is some of the stuff I say about Buddhism is offensive to Buddhist or offensive to some Buddhists on internet discussion forums it doesn't mean there aren't other Buddhist you don't like deeply appreciate my contribution of the field which there are and therefore I'm the same as durianrider and I'm leading like what an echo chamber of people online, it was like . . . weren't we discussing castrating dogs backyard chickens and backyard cow milk and and also her pro leader center.


2. Public / Private relevancy line further back for Eisel

Censored
I don't understand why you're posting this here and I don't understand why you're burning bridges like this.

Eisel Mazard
Hi Censored. This Patreon group is not about veganism: it's about my life. This is part of my life. Studying Chinese, also, is part of my life, etc. If you're not interested, that's okay. If you interpret my having made a video (on pet-ownership) as burning bridges, that's okay, too (you're entitled to have an opinion). However, this Patreon is going to continue to feature odd and memorable things from my life, including (e.g.) arguments with taxi-cab drivers in China, etc. Yes, my interactions with other vegans will, sometimes, be posted here as well, in the same way that other people post/record such things within Facebook.

Censored
I can and do ignore the things on here I'm not interested in, obviously. But I see this and find it unnecessary and disrespectful. YMMV. I disagree with Unnatural Vegan on pet ownership just as much as you do. I actually sent her a message through youtube (not sure if she got it) about some of the things I disagreed on. I disagree with parts of your argument on pet ownership too, although I come to roughly the same conclusions.

Censored
@Censored, How do you see Eisel as the one "burning bridges"? I am thankful he posted this here. I now see exactly what I felt and suspected about Swayze a long time ago. I was subbed to her and several views and subjects she brought forth seemed a bit wrong , felt wrong. With this letter I can see how unreasonable she is being. All of what she accuses him of she's doing within this letter!

Eisel Mazard
I.M.O., all of this discussion (incl. Rewi's perspective) demonstrates why it is worthwhile for me to share these aspects of my life here (within Patreon).

[Storybooking own sent emails...]

[Other Voices:] The Last of the True Believers (2½ min.)

Below is the reply to her that I posted on the same youtube video (note that it had only thirty-seven views at the time I discovered it, and the channel had fewer than 300 subscribers). Durianrider has just a few true-believers holding on… and like true-believers in other faiths, they rely on “selective reading” and intentional ignorance. It is what it is. I’m not trying to pander to this audience. Sadly, not even Durianrider is trying to pander to this audience. In many ways, these people have been forsaken by everyone –even by the bike snobs of Chiang Mai.———-
Hi Fruit Angel: this is a sincere response, and I’ll message you privately, too. . .

[Private video] ...but, sometimes, you've got to be a jerk.

Censored
Ugh I didn't realize it was a private message to her until half way through the video, now I feel as if I violated someone's privacy - I apologize!
Eisel Mazard
Meh. This is in the same week that I've been repeatedly called a sex-predator and a wife-beater. You've got to keep these problems in perspective.

[To each their own personal limit...]

Why I won’t tell you more about my baby

hey guys so I've made it clear in several videos now including in my most recent would be the breastfeeding one that I just put out I made it clear that I have no intention of revealing my baby's name or gender

Why A-Bas-Le-Ciel CHANGED His Name!? Interview Pt.3

You know my channel deals with a lot of real things, including whatever's going on in my life now in China, but . . . there are some things I'm not going to talk about because it's not my story to tell even though it matters to me.

[Thanks for watching!

Next video will be on Domestication, followed by Consequentialism (Singer and effective altruism vs. historical nihilism) and rounding out a video compilation of how well both parties do at giving reasonable critique.

Follow the links in the description to see more.}

[NonZeroSum]

Managed to split topic but doesn't give you an option after you click move posts?

It's so bizarre to see how Eisel misunderstood (and still misunderstands) the issue.
He can't seem to understand the relevance in criticizing behavior, and has to think UV is criticizing his scholarship of Buddhism (she never likes to talk about things she doesn't understand, that would be very out of character, but criticizing how people behave is very in character and consistent with her video).
It's like he has to assume and take it to the most personal level possible when she was basically just saying "Don't be a jerk to people and then refuse to back up what you say with an argument" (presumably the best case is to back up your argument AND not be a jerk, but either one or the other is at least acceptable).

It was a really odd situation, making a video he wasn't sure he was going to post just filling in the new patreon subs where to find the information to their questions and then just having a little moan about the names of people that get brought up for pro pet ownership and the philosophers he doesn't want to have to deal with because he doesn't find them interesting or useful, but then messaging UV out of duty to protocol.

I do think Unnatural Vegan took personal offense and went overboard with her denunciation from a big platform. It is just communication breakdown and stark differences that were bound to come to a head also. Like for example she could have messaged ThinkFact letting him know that she was going to make a further video, when she was making these long responses to his 2 comments, because he was really active in her facebook comments ready to engage and always is on his comment section from what I picked up afterwards.

I know Eisel later (after that bridge burning where he "apologized" for hurting her delicate feelings which if I were to guess only pissed her off) finally released some more substantive videos on the pet stuff responding to specific points. If he had just done that originally there never would have been a problem, and maybe even a back and forth on youtube having a serious debate on the topic.

I think tensions were just really high because of the email exchange where she compared him to Durianrider, that being a trigger to everything he was going through with trying to get access to his daughter back. The points of difference were there in the earlier pet videos, he was basically just saying I'm tired of answering the same comments I'll get round to it again when I have the time.

I kind of wish Eisel would apologize to her for what he actually did (rather than the bullshit "sorry I hurt your delicate female feelings" nonsense), so we would have the chance to see more interesting videos on the subject.
I doubt it'd ever happen.

I think they've both said their peace, whatever it'd take to bury the hatchet would be good, but I also doubt a sea change in character from either.

[brimstoneSalad]

Managed to split topic but doesn't give you an option after you click move posts?

You can select which posts to split off, but if they're in the same thread they'll always be ordered based on post time. You'd need to split these off into another thread.

It was a really odd situation, making a video he wasn't sure he was going to post just filling in the new patreon subs where to find the information to their questions and then just having a little moan about the names of people that get brought up for pro pet ownership and the philosophers he doesn't want to have to deal with because he doesn't find them interesting or useful, but then messaging UV out of duty to protocol.

Do you have the text of the original email he sent her?
Seems like an odd thing to do.

I don't think I'd email somebody just to share a video where I trashed the person and called him or her a moron or whatever he said. The only reason it makes sense to share a video like that is if there's an argument in it you think might inform the other person or even convince him/her. Honestly it's probably the only sensible reason to MAKE a video like that about somebody you don't want to burn bridges with... it's difficult to grasp the idea that people think they have some duty to disclose trash talking, as if that's going to keep those bridges from burning.

The videos Eisel should have shared are the ones he thought he made before that which he believed covered the topic substantively, and ask her if she'd seen them.
In the very least, hold off on burning a bridge until you establish that bridge isn't going to lead anywhere.

I do think Unnatural Vegan took personal offense and went overboard with her denunciation from a big platform.

Why do you think she took personal offense?

It is just communication breakdown and stark differences that were bound to come to a head also.

That's probably true, Eisel has a temper and no filter (despite apparently not holding grudges), and UV seems to hold grudges like nobody's business despite having a very good filter.

Like for example she could have messaged ThinkFact letting him know that she was going to make a further video, when she was making these long responses to his 2 comments, because he was really active in her facebook comments ready to engage and always is on his comment section from what I picked up afterwards.

Maybe, not sure what that would have accomplished though. I remember those videos and they contained actual arguments, which is I think all she was upset with Eisel for not doing. A trash talking video containing no argument against her positions was the problem. That's the culty stuff. Of course I know Eisel is blogging his life and letting off steam, but he's doing it to a pretty large audience of followers and it doesn't look good when he just asks them to nod along and doesn't provide any new argument.

The points of difference were there in the earlier pet videos, he was basically just saying I'm tired of answering the same comments I'll get round to it again when I have the time.

Is the video still up?
I don't remember him saying he was going to make a video refuting hers point-by-point or any like promise.

I don't hold grudges like UV does, but I'd be pissed at that too. Although I wouldn't have cut off communication on account of that. I'll argue come hell or high water.

I think they've both said their peace, whatever it'd take to bury the hatchet would be good, but I also doubt a sea change in character from either.

UV has been wrong in the past too, so my guess is if we saw an apology from Eisel for what he did (not for hurting her feelings), addressed not just to UV but to his patrons too, she'd probably let it go. Or be a hypocrite for not forgiving him after a real apology that admitted what he did wrong (one that wasn't a strawman and another veiled insult).

I really hate to see what could be a more tight nit collaboration on the more rational side of vegan youtube fail to materialize.

Mic. the Vegan was a big disappointment too.
Now Ask Yourself, another disappointment.
And Emily showed willingness to change and respond to criticism, and had good content, but she disappeared from Youtube.
And The Vegan Atheist seems to have retired (at least for now)
I guess we have Rose (Cheap Lazy Vegan), but she doesn't talk much about these issues (when she does it's pretty brilliant)... and then a few up and coming youtubers.
ModVegan is doing a pretty good job.

I think we need to do better at fostering community and collaboration.

[NonZeroSum]

Do you have the text of the original email he sent her?
Seems like an odd thing to do.

I don't, no. Just the one he sent back to her.

Why do you think she took personal offense?

Insult to intellectual character, work put into pet video and Singer, like being told you were silly enough to buy into someone's ideas for too long.

It is just communication breakdown and stark differences that were bound to come to a head also.

That's probably true, Eisel has a temper and no filter (despite apparently not holding grudges), and UV seems to hold grudges like nobody's business despite having a very good filter.

Aha, could well be.

Like for example she could have messaged ThinkFact letting him know that she was going to make a further video, when she was making these long responses to his 2 comments, because he was really active in her facebook comments ready to engage and always is on his comment section from what I picked up afterwards.

Maybe, not sure what that would have accomplished though.

It just comes across a little contrived, you know as if saying thanks for the rhetoric for me to pick apart but I'm not really concerned with understanding from you more about why you hold those rationalizations or what might convince them to navigate towards veganism in the future. It's just some response videos in general that have a slightly sleezy feel to them when they piggyback off of something small because you had the idea to make a big educational video on the subject anyways. But there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, Orwell did the same: https://youtu.be/HGrLDs8EdCc?t=21m20s

I remember those videos and they contained actual arguments, which is I think all she was upset with Eisel for not doing. A trash talking video containing no argument against her positions was the problem. That's the culty stuff. Of course I know Eisel is blogging his life and letting off steam, but he's doing it to a pretty large audience of followers and it doesn't look good when he just asks them to nod along and doesn't provide any new argument.

It was trash talk no doubt, I think ironically he probably felt niggled by UV's comparison of him to Durianrider in giving bad apologies earlier to this. And just wanting to get onto critique of her tentative veganism approach which he'd held back on up to then (just alluding to having disagreements), so spontaneous flag to say we can give up on some of the pleasantries, but was never going to be received well obviously.

The points of difference were there in the earlier pet videos, he was basically just saying I'm tired of answering the same comments I'll get round to it again when I have the time.

Is the video still up?
I don't remember him saying he was going to make a video refuting hers point-by-point or any like promise.

Yep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf4TV76-4Nk&index=13&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3

I know, I meant the theme of the video, on q&a5 feeling inundated with the same questions. He would absolutely have got round to it as soon as he felt he'd found an interesting segway into it, they share the same platform, likes talking about merits of different approaches and business plans of various charities etc.

UV has been wrong in the past too, so my guess is if we saw an apology from Eisel for what he did (not for hurting her feelings), addressed not just to UV but to his patrons too, she'd probably let it go. Or be a hypocrite for not forgiving him after a real apology that admitted what he did wrong (one that wasn't a strawman and another veiled insult).

I really hate to see what could be a more tight nit collaboration on the more rational side of vegan youtube fail to materialize.

Mic. the Vegan was a big disappointment too.
Now Ask Yourself, another disappointment.
And Emily showed willingness to change and respond to criticism, and had good content, but she disappeared from Youtube.
And The Vegan Atheist seems to have retired (at least for now)
I guess we have Rose (Cheap Lazy Vegan), but she doesn't talk much about these issues (when she does it's pretty brilliant)... and then a few up and coming youtubers.
ModVegan is doing a pretty good job.

I think we need to do better at fostering community and collaboration.

Toats, I might even appear on camera at the end of the series to sum up and present those type of sentiments, if you wanted to record a voice message or paragraph that I can caption I can also include that in the video. If nothing else when I've finished the series it'll help condense down some of the many hours of argument to a size easy enough to digest.

[NonZeroSum]

_____________

Domestication video upcoming

Over 11 hour playlist - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6oQJdaeyNM&list=PLqRNOagVZDVedH8wZ-udB42EeP-55jvy3

I want to give an accurate picture of their positions in opposition to each other and what is most important to them when choosing what clips to use in my compilation/mixtape and what order.

If you could give any thoughts you have on most important points you think they wanted to get across and how you received it, and what their main points of contention are. Also what questions you haven’t seen answered that would help give you a fuller picture of the anti or pro pet ownership position, and I can put them to ABLC and UV.

Also check out, comment on or contribute to the wiki article on the subject:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/Companion_Animal_Care

Any thoughts from a quick skim reading about what I'm highlighting and way I'm ordering clips so far?


_________________

Summary


Practical / Individual advice
UV:
• You’re vegan, already got a cat and only just thinking about the implications of feeding them meat, no point stressing, try to get waste meat from butchers and check with your vet.
• Advocates against cat adoption on basis of oblig carniv, diseases, etc.
• You want to rescue omniv/herbiv pet? Not effective altruism but might improve your well-being and compassion towards nonhuman animals.
ABLC:
• Don’t adopt pets, likens to video games or drugs.
• Provide options to fulfil some of herbivorous pets needs, even if risks shorter life through disease or predation.

Activism
UV
• Give to mercy for animals, fund possible vegan cat food kickstarter, sanctuaries designing and marketing to visitors.
• let’s look out for a research team to fund a kick-starter to get better vegan/mostly vegan cat food.
ABLC
• Would open a vegan bakery/restaurant before opening a sanctuary, but acknowledges running a shelter can be a useful revenue source to go into other forms of vegan advocacy.

Ethical issues
UV:
• No harm breeding dogs if return to stable world population.
ABLC:
• Maximizing ability to use all of our/their capabilities/character virtue of humans and non-human animals: not about settling or everyone as individuals reducing suffering around them, but a political movement to move from livestock and pet industry to getting well managed wildlife habitat, where the most amount of animals can fill their needs.
• Psychology: Child-like dependent domesticated animals being something distasteful that we wouldn’t wish on humans so why other animals?
• Symbolically: Having pets is like walking around with 2nd hand leather, someone irresponsibly bred it, you’re perpetuating the industry.


_________________
Sources

Practical / Individual

• Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)
• Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).
• Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.
• Can Lucy go to a wild wolf sanctuary
• Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder)
• 7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)

Activism

• Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)
• 7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)
• Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?
• Riddle of the Lion’s Roar Animal Sanctuaries, Zoos & Wildlife

Advocacy

• Vegans and the Indigenous Issue: Hunting, Domestication & the Concept of Evil.
• Domestication vs. “the Wild”: Vegans & the A.R. Paradigm
• Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil.
• Is Owning Pets Vegan? (vegans alienating everybody, including each other)
• 7 ways vegans alienate everybody, including each other (bad vegan activism)
• Autonomy vs Dignity, Wildlife in Veganism and Ecology in the 21st century
• Dogs vs. Wolves: Vegan Ethics and the Future of Activism.
• Zoopolis: a NON-VEGAN Political Theory of Animal Rights
• Anthropomorphism, Domestication (of Pets) vs. the Wildlife Management Paradigm.
• Q&A about my “Core Message”, Domestication vs. the Wild, etc., with Alejandro.
• Veganism is NOT a Social Justice Movement.
• Come On, FhqwhFgads: Vegan Gains Feeds His Dog Meat.
• #DOGGATE: An Analysis (Vegan Gains vs. Vegan Cheetah)
• Vegan Gains bought a wolf dog from a breeder & now feeds her meat

Psychology

• Why Omnivore Outrage Over the Yulin Dog Meat Festival is Okay
• Veganism Compassion, Contempt and Loathing
• Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?

Ethical issues

Wildlife management

• Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder)
• Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?
• [Other voices: Vegan Gains is Against Pet Ownership. Here’s Why.]
• [Other voices: Jae Costly reflects on pets for disabled people, trained “service animals”, etc.]
• Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.
• Will farm animal species go extinct if the world goes vegan? If so, does it matter?
• What will happen to farmed animals if the world goes vegan?

How fast can domesticated animals adapt to wild habitat

• Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).
• I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.

Extent of disease vectors

• Critique of “Terrorism Lite”: Mic the Vegan, Glenn Greenwald, etc.
• 7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)

More from ABLC

• Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil.
• Pet Ownership as SLAVERY (vegan / vegans / veganism)
• Stop castrating dogs and cats, you twisted sicko.
• Your Cat Hates You: Unnatural Vegan is Wrong, and it Really Matters.
• YOUR CAT HATES YOU: yet more on pets/domestication.
• The Vegan Cheetah is RIGHT About Pets – My response!
• Castration: vegan excuses for enslaving animals. Unnatural Vegan.
• Stop castrating dogs and cats, stop making excuses for it.
• Zoos and/or/as the Meaning of Life Conversation with Jae Costl
• Real Animal-Lovers Don’t Own Animals, Don’t Raise Animals, Don’t Keep Animals.
• Captive Animals ARE NOT Companion Animals (Unnatural Vegan is NOT Vegan)

More from UV

• RE: Why I Am Not a Vegan (the1janitor)
• Is Owning Pets Vegan? (vegans alienating everybody, including each other)
• Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)
• Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder)
• 7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)
• Is Destiny a psychopath? Or just delusional? (thoughts on the Vegan Gains debate)

UV’s consequentialism

• Tentative Vegan #1: What is Tentative Veganism?
• Tentative Vegan #2: Animal Use vs Exploitation
• Using Animals: Does Consent Matter? (follow-up to tentative vegan #2)
• Tentative Vegan: What is the Point? (vegan advocacy…again)
• RE: Why I Am Not a Vegan (the1janitor)
• Dogmatic Justice vs. Morality, Animal Experimentation, etc. (Intersectionality followup 1 of 3)

ABLC’s Historical Nihilism

•Buddhism, Apotheosis and the History of Religion
•On Historical Nihilism (历史虚无主义) and Having a Philosophy in General
•Human Rights: A Nihilist’s Perspective.
•Nihilism If animals don’t have animal rights, why do humans
•New Values Politics, Personhood, Meaning of Life
•Multiculturalism vs. Social Cohesion: “Trust” as a political concept.
•Life is Suffering Have Babies Anyway. (Against Anti-Natalism)
•The Nihilistic Approach to Humanitarian & Political Engagement.
•Nietzsche’s “Slave Morality” (& Vegan Gains): Is Philosophy a Science or Showbusiness?
•Atheism as an ideology (agnostic vs. nihilist)
•Max Stirner’s philosophy (in/and my life)
•Schopenhauer’s philosophy (in/and my life)
•Friendship, the perpetual parting of ways.
•Arbitrary “Lines” in Ecology, Ethics, and Animal Rights. (Vegan)
•Ethics: Vegans, Vasectomies, Flexitarians… questions of good and evil.
•Happiness, obduracy and the meaning of life.
•Advice Nobody Wants to Hear [Ep. 001]
•“Dogma”: Axiomatic & Pragmatic Thinking in Vegan Politics.
•Ethics: Vegans, Vasectomies, Flexitarians… questions of good and evil.
•Happiness is overrated, narcissism is overrated.
•Happiness, obduracy and the meaning of life.
•[Self-Parody:] Happiness, obduracy and the meaning of life.
•Veganism is not a philosophy; vegans are not a community.
•Karl Popper’s philosophy (in/and my life)
•Nationalism & the mere concept of “Good People”. (vegan / vegans / veganism)
•Beautiful (vegan / vegans / veganism)
•Debating Meditation with Buddhists: the Fallacy of Having Faith in a Feeling…
•Is Veganism based on belief? Should it be?
•The Conspiracy Theory Mentality.
•Practical Nihilism: Stop Believing You're "A Good Person".
•Nihilist Philosophy: Beyond Belief (in Truth, Good & Evil).



_________________

Quotes


Practical/ Individual Advice

Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)

of course loving our pets means doing the best we can for them and doing the best we can for them we think means feeding them lots of meat but no matter how much we love our cats and our dogs it doesn't negate reality it doesn't negate the fact that feeding them meat means supporting the torture and destruction of other animals animals that think and feel just like our companion animals do if we can reduce or even eliminate that suffering by feeding our pets a plant-based diet shouldn't we at least try to do that?

so it probably seems that I am 100% in favor of feeding dogs and cats a vegan diet when it comes to dogs that's true while obviously you cannot feed them a diet of rice and potatoes or whatever other nonsense that some people promote it is consensus and veterinary nutrition that dogs can be healthy on a plant-based diet as long as it meets a FCO guidelines and this really is not too surprising considering that a majority a huge number of commercial dog foods that contain meat also contain a high amount of plant foods like rice and corn and luckily there are a lot of commercial options available including from very large brands like Purina cats are more complicated unfortunately and when it comes to actual research on cats eating and all plant diet there just isn't that much there have been some studies have been done but the sample sizes are always fall and what is tested is usually rather limited

so I've said a lot here and what what does it all mean exactly um it means that I do not feel 100% comfortable feeding my cat a vegan diet an all vegan diet if there were more brands available from trustworthy company specifically brands from larger companies with better quality control if there were more you know research on cats eating vegan diets with larger sample sizes and whatnot then I would probably feel differently but as it stands now I do not feed sniff a vegan diet

the good news is that just like we don't have to go completely vegan to reduce animal suffering our cats don't either just like the people at vegan cats calm and the author of obligate carnivore Jed Gillen recommend just reducing the amount of meat in our cat's diets it makes a difference the easiest way to do this is to feed some commercial vegan cat food you know veggie cat or Amy or bin a vote or a combination of the three you know occasionally rotating the three probably the best thing to do so feeding that along with a commercial you know meat-based diet preferably a canned a wet variety to increase the moisture content in their overall diet and preferably one of the cheaper brands the cheaper varieties so like Friskies or nine lies as opposed to the premium brands the former often have meat byproducts listed as primary ingredients these are parts of the animals that would traditionally go to waste if not for use in animal feed often these are products of factory farming that cannot legally be sold for human consumption the premium brands on the other hand often have animals killed specifically for the pet food another option that was actually brought up during the vegan option podcast on this topic is oysters because they are very likely not sentient to talk about this here they're also much more environmentally friendly they are a much better option in terms of feeding cats you know meat when it comes to suffering and sustainability if your cat will actually eat them mine will not to be clear I am NOT suggesting to feed your cat a diet of only oysters do not do this they will not get everything that they need will not be healthy you will have to supplement with some sort of you know fortified food you know the vegan variety like Amy or bin of our veggie cats something like that but really if you're going to do this if you want to do this please talk to your vet first yet another option is what butchers refer to as sawdust this is the leftover meat at the end of the day of grinding you know the stuff that just like falls out on the table and on the floor and they usually just throw it away I have been successful actually in contacting one butcher I contacted a lot the rest of them were like no we're not giving you that but I did find one who was totally cool with me it came he a lot actually to use it to feed to my cat and I told him that's why I was doing it you could tell you was kind of confused but he was fine with it I didn't have to pay anything so that was great there are three problems though the first one is that it's gross you know handling meats raw meat and everything it's a lot grosser than dealing with you know like a can of you know commercial meat based you know Friskies or whatever number two it's really hard to make it tasty like cubic and cat food is and number three feeding it you know obviously you cannot feed it on its own just like with oysters they will not get everything that they need but even feeding it along with you know vegan cat food Amy or boniva or whatever else it may not be adequate because again meat is not necessarily a good source of tarring a lot is lost in terms of the processing and the freezing and thawing so probably feeding some sort of multivitamin that includes tarring would be a good idea but again please do not just do this on your own for both the oysters and the sawdust since these are not commercially available foods formulated specifically for cats please do not take this into your own hands if you want to try to feed some sort of sawdust vegan cat food or oyster vegan cat food type thing please talk to your vet first

I may be more biased against vegan cat foods again I have a fair amount of experience with UTIs and cats the very significant terrible example that I don't ever want to relive and so I may be attributing more terribleness the possible terribleness to vegan diets than is actually warranted I tried my best to be very unbiased with this and to look at all the research available and including the anecdotes and these brands and everything else but it's tough for me and really even for myself you know if I had if sniff were a female I would probably I would probably be less concerned and I would probably try him on an all vegan diet still obviously feeding commercially-available likely occasionally rotating you know among a me and bin of oh and veggie cat just to reduce you know risk of any sort of deficiency and then also of course monitoring the ph just be safe taking him to a vet to make sure that's done properly but again my concern would be less than what it is with a male cat a male cat who has had a mild instance of UTI in the past and finally if you don't currently have a cat or any pet or looking for a pet my best advice would be to go for a non meat-eating animal you know something like a rabbit or even a pig or something or a dog again an animal that can you know easily eat a vegan diet and that said if you if you really want a cat which I totally understand cats are the best things ever um probably go for a female cat and you know try to feed as little meat as possible


Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).

so what is the mature attitude to take towards these things as I've said in many many videos it's just to admit there are some problems we can't solve overnight whether we're talking about you know vivisection you know scientific research exploiting animals or you know there are there are all kinds of nasty horrible grey areas and vegans were killing insects in order to raise fruit killing animals in order to raise through because you got to kill mammals a lot of time on a farm had actually had what intelligent comment in the Q&A; but it wasn't really a question but a guy talked about his own experience working on an organic farm and you know guess what you kill animals if not every day certainly every week you're killing mammals as well as killing insects the whole process of farming yeah okay there are contradictions veganism is not some perfect mathematical formula where you manage to do zero harm and achieve a perfect spiritual good it's not veganism is you know as messy and internally contradictory as anything else that involves ethics ecology agriculture social change life is not perfect and of course they're all the other connotations to they're all all the time I get questions you know people want to ask me about the ethics of how clothing factors are pretty fine good question but it's not veganism you know you want to talk about war great but it's not fitting to them so if veganism doesn't solve all problems and you shouldn't hold up veganism next to a perfect or ideal standard the other point is the fact that there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean there are no solutions doesn't mean there's nothing you can do doesn't mean you're disempowered by this discourse you can feel empowered by recognizing the contradictions and embracing imperfect solutions for imperfect and messy problems so one of my fans here I think she's no longer with us I think she's quit the patreon but one of my fans on patreon wrote me that she was really inspired by what I had to say about pet ownership and she looked at her own situation with her pet rabbits so these were rabbits that were rescued not bought but she did acquire the rabbits in order to entertain her children so you know they rescued but again ultimately like zoo animals or like circus animals these animals are being kept alive you know to entertain human beings as a coot Ramon for um you know a bourgeois a human life style they're not they're not being reintroduced into the wild they're not being yeah they don't exist to have their own children to live their own lives to you know pray and be preyed upon you know they are being kept they are being domesticated for our entertainment so we can quote love unquote them uh-huh but she had followed up to before she saw my video she had followed the advice of vets who told her that the the rabbit should I should kept entirely indoors their whole lives and the vets have the reasons for that if the rabbits are outdoors they may be preyed upon you know a bird a bird of prey can come down and kill them a fox or a badger or I think even a raccoon can come in and kill a rabbit if it's in your backyard if it's outdoors and I think there are some other reason some of the diseases they can get from going out freely and and eating eating wild grass would okay so you know there's a rationale there for why that would say that um but this fan of mine she watched my videos and she thought about it and the basic point I made you know like about penguins yeah life is full of contradictions sometimes for various reasons you end up having to keep Penguins in captivity to prevent them from going extinct or to try to keep them temporarily until they can be reduced reintroduced into the wild there's been a disaster you know an oil tanker has covered their habitat with oil and we've got to keep them in captivity until they can go back to living in the ocean all kinds of reasons but what do you do with those penguins you don't chop their balls off and try to turn them into house pets you don't try to turn them into zoo creatures or entertainment or circus performers you don't try to domesticate them until they're cute and lovable and sit on your couch patiently while you watch TV try to make them in abdomen you try to keep them in a habitat that is as close as possible to what their conditions in the wild would be which can be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to provide an artificial habitat for four penguins very very difficult so you know this fan of mine looking at our own rabbits these rabbits had lived their whole lives on a concrete floor they'd never had the experience of digging in the soft earth they never looked up and seen a blue sky over their heads terribly sad so she did what she could she actually went out and bought a hutch you know a small wooden house a miniature house for these rabbits put it in her backyard and she changed these rabbits lives by letting them roam freely around the backyard during the day and at night she puts them in the hutch and she you know she could see the rabbit all their behavior was totally transformed for the first time they got to indulge in some of their wild behaviour not all but they were in a context that was closer to their natural wild environment they got to dig in the earth I got to dig burrows they got to eat grass they got to nibble on dandelions and yes you know what it's possible that instead of living for a greater number of years on a concrete floor and never experiencing those things it's possible that one of these days a falcon will swoop down and kill the rabbits it's possible that some other predator is gonna kill them as possible their life will be cut short but you know what death is a part of life and I don't know how vegans can lack a mature attitude towards that


Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.

is our vision of the future one in which the you know enslavement debasement the domestication of animals for food for companionship entertainment is that a perpetual part of our culture for the next 500 years next 1,000 years or do we as vegans see ourselves in a period of transition we're just like we want traditional we want to transition away from being a society that smoke cigarettes we also want to be in a transition that eventually brings about the end of the domestication of animals for me that's not a difficult question answer for me it is not difficult to say in the future I don't think dog should be pet it should be groomed or bread or castrated to be companions to human beings that's I don't know why that would be difficult for any vegan to give that answer but I did have one um one question come in here on YouTube from a longtime fan called twisted hippie he's a fan but again he doesn't mind disagree with me he doesn't mind you know criticizing me when he when he disagrees me which is great certainly welcome and several people commented that they found my answer to his question enlightening that will forever reason they didn't really understand my point to the domestication of animals until they read this um so I'm gonna read it out now I I don't know why that is but many people said this clarified management I agree but on a practical level what do we do with the rescue animals already existing no animals should be forced to live in a human home when it doesn't come close to its natural environment however if the alternative is euthanasia ? right so here's my reply to this guy I believe I have discussed this at sufficient length both on youtube and within patreon vis I agree but on a practical level what do we do with the rescue animals already existing the reality is that vegans don't have an answer for the question of what will we do with all the cows if the slaughterhouse owners suddenly became vegan and refuse to kill them we probably have no good answer as to what to do with farm animals if millions and millions of them suddenly could not be killed and could not be introduced to the wild etc and so pause obviously if even a single large farm owner suddenly declared that he wanted to do the right thing you want to save the lives of all of his cows several thousand cows those cows can't live in the forest what actually would you do as a vegan you personally if you suddenly had several thousand cows in your hands however we can recognize that this is really a spurious and unreasonable argument when meat-eaters raise it so if meteors say this to you as a reproach how can you possibly be vegan given that you have no solution for what to do with these animals today if all the slaughterhouse is closed today if all the meat producing factory farms closed today we can recognize that it's spurious and unreasonable why is it that we have so much difficulty in recognizing a precisely parallel problem in the domestication of animals as pets the end of the cycle of domestication like the end of the cycle of industrialized slaughter has to start somewhere and it has to start with someone I'm asking you sincerely to consider that it starts with us vegans but most of us are in a state of extreme denialism and can't even admit that this is a problem yet


Can Lucy go to a wild wolf sanctuary
…...


Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder)

so reading purchasing a cat from a breeder or breeding yourself intentionally breeding cats is not vegan I don't think that's very controversial or alien to say I mean I think most of us know if you want a pet adopt don't shop you know don't leave an animal to be euthanized to die in a shelter because you wanted a Maine Coon or a Persian or a hairless sphynx
but creating a carnivorous animal where there was none before is becoming the person who tied those animals to the track in the first place you are creating a moral dilemma where none existed that's not okay the only exception to this breeding issue might be if you are participating in some sort of
there are obviously medical exceptions for people who need assistance dogs you can see my video on medicine here in those cases buying a dog from a small breeder who treats the dog well that may be the only good option bomb sniffing dogs may be another reasonable exception but again if we're talking about pets if we're talking about just getting a breed for vanity just because you like the breed even if you do feed the animal vegan it's probably a wrong when you could have so easily and more cheaply just adopted


7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)

in addition spaying and neutering can help to reduce the desire to roam that primal desire to Rome which can make your cats happier as indoor pets or at least less miserable the only thing more cruel than leaving a cat intact with a powerful sex drive and keeping it away from any mates would be to let the cat out doors to breed multiple generations of feral kittens who are doomed to suffer follow the Golden Rule here assuming you could never have sex you had no way to release any sexual frustration remember cats don't even have porn would you rather have a stronger sex drive or a weaker sex drive in such a situation I would want to be spayed or neutered to reduce my suffering.
In conclusion

If you must get a cat adopt and please get a female, get her spayed, never let her outside and do your best to feed her vegan. Beyond that try to make her tiny prison as engaging as possible and for you try to find some way to cope with your contribution to the billions of pounds of cat poops that's rotting in landfills every year.
So those are the reasons why I will not be adopting another cat as much as I love cats and I really do adore cats, I've never lived without, I'm really not a dog person, I know he spent all the time hyping up dogs but I really am a cat person, I just think they're so cool.

I haven't ever since I was a little baby we've had at least one cat so it does make me very sad to think that sometime very likely in the near future given sniffs very, very old, a hinge I will no longer have a cat that's very sad, but I just cannot reconcile all of the problems; the problems for the cat itself, for the environment, for the wildlife, for humans, I can't reconcile that with the benefits.


Activism


Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)

a near vegan kibble so what I really really wish is that there was some sort of near vegan kibble that I could give to my own cat and also recommend to you guys you know something that contained you know non sentient animals like oysters or worms or marginally sentient animals like insects that would be such a huge improvement you know something that was fully fortified and actually tested and contained all the nutrients that cats needs and also you know the big one did not increase the risk for you know crystal formation and urinary blockage so are there any DAC viens out there who could formulate something like that and are there any people with manufacturing experience who could actually produce this if there are you know maybe we could start a crowdfunding campaign I'm dead serious of this you know I think I think a lot of people would be interested in this not just vegans obviously not just people concerned about the ethics of feeding you know sentient animals to our annals but also people who are more interested in a more a more natural thing if it's like an insect based thing I think a lot of paleo people would be very interested in this insects are supposed to be very very healthy whatever I don't care what the reason is I think a lot of people would actually be really interested in this so again if anyone knows if this is actually possible please leave a comment down below or you can message me personally here on YouTube yeah that'd be awesome

but let's be real given the costs associated with adopting an animal this is a personal choice it's one that can be neutral ethically speaking and obviously beneficial to you and to the animal but it's not effective altruism


7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)

not everybody wants to spend thousands of dollars creating a cat paradise and nor should they it's not a very good use of money when that money could save so many lives when it is devoted to more effective altruism like for instance giving it to Mercy for Animals which you could new right here


Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?

unfortunately most farm sanctuaries are nonprofit and they are not very open to having people come to visit them I just looked at several near where we are and none of them are open to the public one is but it's like a only all the others they're looking for volunteers which is is great but if you're already going to volunteer you're probably already convinced that farm animals need help right you're probably already convinced you're probably already vegan right or at least hatchet Arian this isn't really appealing to the masses like the masses don't want to go and do work they want to go and experience a fun thing and look at some cute animals I guess my point is that I think a lot of these farm sanctuaries are missing a really big opportunity it costs so much money to care for these animals and it's really nice what they're doing but they could be reaching so many more people and doing so much more good and helping so many more animals if they allowed more people to come and visit and to actually see these animals because we know that this is one of the most important things we know that a lot of people credit their dogs and their cats with going vegetarian with giving up meat having a relationship with these animals I mean I can't imagine if more people could form relationships with the actual animals they're eating with cows and pigs and chickens that could just be incredible


Riddle of the Lion’s Roar Animal Sanctuaries, Zoos & Wildlife

it's just one of these things what does the word abolition really mean what does the word sanctuary really mean I mean it's surreal the whole thing it's it's I I understand completely the sentimentality behind it I myself as a vegan i do care about animals but for me what makes sense is having animals die in the wild where other animals eat their corpse after they're dead it doesn't make sense to me to reproduce half of the problems with a farm and half of the problems of the zoo and to promote this animal sanctuary model as the solution to all our problems given given again that ultimately we have priorities we have limited amounts of money and everything else if I have the two hundred thousand dollars just even to compare the two humble examples okay buy a plot of land and open an animal sanctuary versus open a restaurants a vegan restaurant downtown somewhere let's say it's a vegan restaurant with a gym or something upstairs you know whatever and promote veganism you know to human beings uh to me you know the second option is much more meaningful as much more likely to really have a dynamic change in the world but still I mean I do understand why people want to have these these sanctuaries when I was in France I knew a couple of really hardcore vegan activists the one guy he had formerly been an employee of pettah for years they both just had years and years of experience with vegan activist of different kinds everything from giving pamphlets to lectures to showing movies they've done all kinds of vegan vegan activism and you know they also would go and volunteer at a sanctuary once in a while and they just said the reality of this sanctuary is because they don't kill the animals so they accept a certain number of animals and it's very finite how many horses can you really take care of for real-time money labor the food for the horses can you can you keep five forces maybe that's your capacity okay so you accept five horses and a certain number of dogs and a certain number of cats and a certain number of pigs and that's it and then the door is closed and those animals live for years and years until they die and then after that people including the people who donate money to you because somebody who's donated thousands of dollars to you phones you up and says look we've rescued this pig or the Sheep some circumstances there's the Sheep maybe it's a deer there's this animal in these circumstances anchor we want the dev put slip and you say no we can't help you we're already full and then the animal inevitably is either sent to a kill shelter so a shelter where it's kept alive for a couple of days for skilled or it's just shot in the head it hope this is the depressing day-to-day reality of animal sanctuary whether it's horses or whether they just do dogs or cats or what have you as I say for me the actual lives the animals that are on the sanctuary for me again it's better than some farms but it's it's very similar to some other farms including you know something like a petting zoo


Advocacy


Vegans and the Indigenous Issue: Hunting, Domestication & the Concept of Evil.

there was a time when again this is like really 15 years ago the insistence was instead on you know respecting animals meaning respecting their habitat respecting their independence respecting that a shark in nature will kill any human beings a tiger an elephant that we should be making room and planning the future of our society so that animals can live in wilderness but in this sense the baseline for what is a dog a dog is not man's best friend this paradigm was also insisting that we regard a dog naturally as a wild hunter as a predator and indeed I mean wild dogs they'll attack you and try to kill you and eat you still today in Africa
but this this really was refusing to take the view of animals as a toy as a plaything as something to be domesticated and cuddled and this really has disappeared today
the cuddly lamb the cuddly cute pig that's become of central symbolic significance to veganism today and you know pigs in the wild they're actually pretty terrifying if you run into an adult boar in the jungle you can indeed be attacked
but they were willing to admit of a difference there was a difference between a pig that lives its whole life wild and free in the forest with all of the joys and miseries of being a real authentic wild animal a pig that one day suddenly encounters a human being with a crossbow the human being kills that pig and eats it that from the old fashioned perspective really was qualitatively different from factory farming the sort of the disaggregated cycle of people buying meat as a finished product in a shop and not feeling any responsibility for killing the animal it's a much different set of psychological priorities as well as a different approach to political provocation or propaganda shall we say and today this has almost been inverted


Domestication vs. “the Wild”: Vegans & the A.R. Paradigm

I think with nobody really noticing it with nobody drawing a line on a map or turning a new chapter in a book we switched from a whole discourse that really cared about wilderness and even moderate ecologists and so on back then forest habitat though rainforest save the rainforest those were the big looming paradigms around everything in ecology and indeed even vegetarianism was promoted by saying save the rainforest stop eating beef that causes the rain forced to be cut down etc etc and again that's really much more based on lumber and less based on gaseous emissions but the idea of what is the proper relationship between human beings and animals in that paradigm is actually one of fear and mistrust and taking out a map and saying okay that area over there is for the elephants and tigers and this area over here is for human beings and fundamentally our job as human beings is to leave the animals alone is not to haunt them to extinction not to hunt it not to chop down their forests but it is also not to domesticate them not to use them as decorations for carpets not to use them as you know warm-blooded toy plaything teddy bear not to use them to entertain or children or what have you
Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil.
I think it's deeply problematic that in 2016 vegans are using the image of pet pigs as an icon to challenge the cruelty of the farming industry of the fact that people eat pigs and bacon I understand it's an effective propaganda tool but like all propaganda its a mix of truth and lies isn't it pig may look cute and cuddly when you present it this way you want to argue that pigs can be a house pet in the same way that a dog can be or cat can be but that is not what pigs are like in the wild that's not what it's like for the pig to live in the wilderness roaming free finding its own meals or finding its own starvation going to sleep hungry waking up independently making its own life for itself and its pack you know that is a life you can take away from a pig but that's not a life you can ever give it okay you can give a pig a couch to sleep on you can give up a human home and that pig can be reduced to decorating your carpet and living with you as a pet but that in itself actually is immoral in many ways you're denying that pig the opportunity to be a pig and you're making it into a pathetic echo of a human being apathetic shadow of human civilization a decoration and a play thing for human needs human boredom human desires and I think many of these people who glorified pigs as pets have never seen a wild boar I had never seen even feral pigs that have recaptured some of their wild characteristics and I think those same people would find it very disturbing if they went to a friend's house and there was a chimpanzee or group of chimpanzees showing their natural social behaviors which are terrifying you know in the wild chimpanzees monkeys and great apes generally they're competitive they compete with one another they fight they scream at each other they compete for social status of course they also go out and get food they have all these complex social behaviors dogs in the wild you know have all the politics of the wolf pack of how how the dogs are organized and again fight for spear ority many people are shocked when it comes up that we do actually live in a dog-eat-dog world that dogs in the wild big dogs do eat little talks dogs are cannibalistic as a species um many vegans are proud to raise their house pets vegan okay well you want to take an animal that in the wild not only hunts and kills but will hunt and kill its own species happily enough and turn it into this play thing in many ways there's a series of immoral decisions that have already been made before we even get to the point of questioning the social role of this thing that sleeps on the rug and in some ways is treated as if it were just a living rug


Is Owning Pets Vegan? (vegans alienating everybody, including each other)

it's one thing to tell people that animals feel to and so eating them is wrong it's another thing to tell people that rescuing cats and dogs from imminent death and bringing them into a loving home is wrong there's also the argument that the institution of pet ownership itself is bad which is also irrelevant yes some people abuse their pets are you doing that it's much like the argument that because animals are abused in the production of eggs and dairy and ultimately killed that it has to be that way that it's impossible to produce these products without abuse backyard rescue hens who are treated well and who are not just killed as soon as egg production drops are a great example of why blanket statements like this are not true just because you are capable of abusing an animal doesn't mean that you will and while you have no control over abuses that occur commercially having a pet and the level of care that you provide for that pet is something that you do have full control over it's also important to note that when it comes to animals ownership is limited obviously in the eyes of the law adopting a dog is not the same as buying a table or some other inanimate object you cannot do anything you want with the dog but I'm pretty sure the government's not going to care what you do with the table


7 ways vegans alienate everybody, including each other (bad vegan activism)

anti-pets and you know pet ownership, owning pets, I did a video on this one very recently and as I say in the video; “making these claims it's not only incredibly alienating since most people think owning pets is perfectly fine and that adopting them is great and they have pets themselves but it likely makes the vegan movement look really silly you know it's one thing to tell people that animals feel to and so eating them is wrong it's another thing to tell people that rescuing cats and dogs from imminent death and bringing them into a loving home is wrong” I find the anti-owning pets stance very similar to the antinatalism stance in terms of like level of alienation I guess you know just like most people view having children it's a very good thing most people view adopting pets as a very good thing having a companion animal is also often cited as a reason for going vegan again just like you know people are raising children caring for a dog cat bunny ferret you know whatever and making it part of your family equated that with exploitation it's probably going to come across rather callous and nonsensical to most people whether they have pets or not


Autonomy vs Dignity, Wildlife in Veganism and Ecology in the 21st century

Dogs vs. Wolves: Vegan Ethics and the Future of Activism.

Zoopolis: a NON-VEGAN Political Theory of Animal Rights

Anthropomorphism, Domestication (of Pets) vs. the Wildlife Management Paradigm.

Q&A about my “Core Message”, Domestication vs. the Wild, etc., with Alejandro.


Veganism is NOT a Social Justice Movement.

I got an email a few days ago asking me about yes implies technology that’s about questions now coming in a boat managing deer population and so on great questions I got a question a few days ago asking me about backyard chickens and this is somebody who approached veganism from instead this not not my perspective I guess from the common perspective and this person really sincerely felt that my approach the wildlife management approach fails to address whether or not it’s okay to eat eggs from chickens raised in your backyard in a coop but it’s the world’s most comfortable chicken coop all this bullshit this animal welfare is approach bullshit right and I was able to write back and say look you obviously haven’t watched even one of my videos on what the wildlife management approach to veganism is and why argue it okay not only do I think it’s immoral for you to eat the chickens eggs that are raised in your backyard I not only don’t think it’s immoral for you to raise them in captivity of any time I think it’s immoral for you to feed the chickens my philosophy can be summed up with a sign we’ve all seen please do not feed the Bears I do not want animals several relationship of dependency on human beings at all I reject domestication of animals entirely okay the Bears in the forest should try to feed themselves and when they can’t feed themselves they should starve that’s the life of a bear in the wild period dogs should not be our pets we should not pretend to dogs are our friends dog should exist only in the wild where they can feed themselves or starve and guess what folks it’s literally a dog-eat-dog world if you know anything about our dogs exist in the wild dogs do kill and eat other dogs right and there’s a line of the map and I don’t think the bears have the right to come in and live in the city I don’t think the bears have the right to come in and eat the garbage out of your garbage can obviously it’s dangerous


Come On, FhqwhFgads: Vegan Gains Feeds His Dog Meat.

#DOGGATE: An Analysis (Vegan Gains vs. Vegan Cheetah)

Vegan Gains bought a wolf dog from a breeder & now feeds her meat


Psychology


Why Omnivore Outrage Over the Yulin Dog Meat Festival is Okay

Veganism Compassion, Contempt and Loathing

There's a struggle to determine what the culture of the 21st century is going to be. And veganism is one ideology in that struggle.


Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?

another problem that we have to be aware of something that a lot of people experience when they see an animal or a person in really deplorable conditions you know we would expect people to feel oh my god I feel so sorry for them I want to help them and feel like overwhelming compassion but often what people experience is disgust they feel like oh my god I need to get away from that and they start to see the animal organ or the human as the other so that is something to be aware of if you are wanting to take your kids to zoo and there are exhibits like that again like the hippo exhibit that I described that's disgusting they're in this disgusting water you can see like the shit in the water right like is that really something that you think is going to instill compassion in your child there's a good chance it won't and this is where


Ethical issues

Wildlife management


Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder)

Should vegans support zoos? Are they inherently cruel?

[Other voices: Vegan Gains is Against Pet Ownership. Here’s Why.]

[Other voices: Jae Costly reflects on pets for disabled people, trained “service animals”, etc.]


Your Dog Hates You: “Service Animals” and Airplane Pillows.

I've raised for you guys a whole series of problems we're all I've been trying to do is to get you to admit that they're problematic castration is problematic killing cows to feed dogs is problematic killing lambs the feed cats is problematic and yes even these psychological dimensions of how people live with dogs after those dogs have been castrated train had their will broken had their sex lives taken away from had any chance of an independent life of dignity taken away from them when these dogs have lived their whole lives without ever knowing what it's like to be in a pack what it's ever like never knowing what it's like to be in a forest I have just been saying that this is problematic and the very real hatred and obligee directed towards me but the vast majority of vegans has been manifest and demonstrated all but this is the question I have to ask for you if we as vegans can't just admit that this is a problem and think critically about what direction we're going in the future who can

Will farm animal species go extinct if the world goes vegan? If so, does it matter?

What will happen to farmed animals if the world goes vegan?


How fast can domesticated animals adapt to wild habitat


Q&A2 (Part 5!) Cats Eating Cows (“Pet Food”).

a punch people wrote in to be claiming that that pigs domesticated pigs are incapable of reverting to their feral behaviors you didn't Google even when I mentioned the earth your videos we joking Google feral pigs a matter of weeks pigs that escaped from farms revert to their wild behaviour and they actually recover their their characteristics the well cared remarkably quickly pigs go feral rapidly dogs all these claims total pseudoscience claiming that dogs have evolved to be human toys and lack the ability to go feral really you never you've never dealt with there i have i've dealt with feral dogs I google this you think dogs don't go feral in like a couple weeks revert to all their complex social behaviors complex pack pavers there

I don’t hate Eisel, but I am disappointed.

I'm not saying Eisel is going to encourage people to undergo life-altering you know procedures or give up on higher education to pursue a YouTube career or any of the other crazy stuff that hardly promotes although you know given his misguided views on pet station and how supposedly easy it is for animals previously living in captivity to revert to their feral nature if released into the wild it's possible that somebody would believe this to be true and actually released you know their pet into the wild where would it would most assuredly die you may see that as beyond the realm of possibility but many people imagine someone listening to Harley or Frehley or vegan gains and you know actually going under the knife you know for a potentially irreversible procedure as beyond the realm of possibility it clearly is not.


Extent of disease vectors


Critique of “Terrorism Lite”: Mic the Vegan, Glenn Greenwald, etc.

most cities you can't keep cheap for your record anyway yeah that is you can't even keep backyard hens right yeah sure without a permit or something yeah sure and guess why all those animals spread unbelievably horrible contagious diseases to your ins they spread horrible contagious diseases to one another and to people so it's no joke including your cat great article in The Atlantic Monthly called your cat is driving you crazy I think I must have sent you this article it was when I was in America and it was a neighboring town from where I was living in they were campaigning to try to get back here tends to be legal they go because they were illegal in the town that they were living in and it was just funny hearing their arguments for backyard hens ya know they had to do with cruelty to animals and like this is this is a way to not be cruelty Yeah right just keep it in a wooden box from the day it's fortunate it's time cruel about that just just anyway.

7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)


More from ABLC

Vegans don’t own pets: domestication and evil.

Pet Ownership as SLAVERY (vegan / vegans / veganism)

Stop castrating dogs and cats, you twisted sicko.

Your Cat Hates You: Unnatural Vegan is Wrong, and it Really Matters.

YOUR CAT HATES YOU: yet more on pets/domestication.

The Vegan Cheetah is RIGHT About Pets – My response!

Castration: vegan excuses for enslaving animals. Unnatural Vegan.

Stop castrating dogs and cats, stop making excuses for it.

Zoos and/or/as the Meaning of Life Conversation with Jae Costl

Real Animal-Lovers Don’t Own Animals, Don’t Raise Animals, Don’t Keep Animals.

Captive Animals ARE NOT Companion Animals (Unnatural Vegan is NOT Vegan)


More from UV

RE: Why I Am Not a Vegan (the1janitor)

the relevant point that I think you're missing is what makes owning a sentient being right or wrong and that's consequences the argument can be made that you know caring for having a dog a cat certain other species benefits these animals but you know every situation has to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis for instance adopting a dog a creature that has been bred to be very loyal and trusting of humans and to get great pleasure out of being a companion animal to humans is very likely not exploitative on the other hand buying an elephant a highly intelligent creature that travels miles a day and attempting to keep it you know in your backyard or in a zoo for that matter probably cannot be defended the dog will most likely benefit from being someone's pet the elephant will most certainly not but even in the case of dogs and other pets a happy life obviously is not guaranteed there are certainly instances where pets are abused not well cared for and there are laws in place to protect these animals and to deter future abuse in Texas specifically it is against the law to torture animals fail to provide food care or shelter abandoned animals transport or confine an animal in a cruel manner kill seriously injure or poison an animal cause an animal to fight with another use a live animal is law in a dog race triple horse which I mean come on Texas get it together injure an animal belonging to another person or seriously overworked an animal and these acts are punishable by $10,000 fine and up to two years in jail

spaying and neutering also has important consequences for the animals keeping an animal from breeding ensures less unwanted births and therefore less unnecessary suffering it also ensures less animals are available to sell or give away to people who are looking for a pet less animals we breed the more people are to adopt the animals that are already here


Is Owning Pets Vegan? (vegans alienating everybody, including each other)

Can cats and dogs eat a vegan diet? (why Sniff still eats meat)

Why vegans shouldn’t shop (adopt don’t shop, don’t buy from a breeder)


7 Reasons Why Cats are Terrible Pets (Why I Will Not Adopt Another Cat)

Is Destiny a psychopath? Or just delusional? (thoughts on the Vegan Gains debate)
Or maybe that would cross his arbitrary line, maybe he would declare abortion, birth control and interference with rape tantamount to murder as I explained earlier because it interferes with potential, if that's true though, this wouldn't justify him eating most meat either, if you are going for the best case scenario future options, then you clearly have to give most animals rights too.

Intelligent animals are capable of learning social rules to varying degrees depending on their intelligence and of practicing them to the extent of their impulse control. Social and domesticated animals like dogs, cows, pigs and even chickens are particularly capable of learning civil behavior given the right environment. Just as humans are incapable given the wrong environment because notions of non-violence, of property rights, of just basic civility are learned, these are not things that are innate to human beings.

But that's not to say it's rocket science, particularly just respecting the right to life, if well-trained domestic animals can respect Destiny’s right to life and avoid harming him and even property, why can't he do the same?

[NonZeroSum]

UV’s consequentialism


Tentative Vegan #1: What is Tentative Veganism?

Tentative Vegan #2: Animal Use vs Exploitation

Maybe you have like a backyard sheep is that possible I don't know maybe so you have like a sheep as a pet and you share it and you and you where it's it's waste again we're talking about essentially a waste product it's something that would go to waste if it were not used and you use it to make I don't know knit some gloves out of or something again if assuming that the the sheep that the animal is well cared for and loved and all of that and not harmed what is the harm what what is wrong with that situation.
I actually want to end with a question regarding pets domesticated pets because if there are any of you watching who still agree with these the use’s abuse type of thinking how do you feel about pets do you think that there's any difference between say having a dog or having a you know backyard rescued hen and consuming its eggs do you see any difference between the two because I I do not I see both relationships as mutually beneficial assuming that the or well cared-for you know they're receiving food and water and shelter and nurture and you are receiving companionship and eggs whatever else I don't know maybe you shave your dog and make little hats out of its fur I don't know that's probably on one of those like strange addiction' shows or something there's probably a person who shaves their dog and makes hats out of its fur that sounds like more of a cat lady thing to do though you would shave your cat and make a little hats out of it point is I would love to know what you think if you see a difference between something like having a dog as a pet and having a chicken as a pet and also consuming its unfertilized eggs.

Using Animals: Does Consent Matter? (follow-up to tentative vegan #2)

Tentative Vegan: What is the Point? (vegan advocacy…again)

RE: Why I Am Not a Vegan (the1janitor)

Dogmatic Justice vs. Morality, Animal Experimentation, etc. (Intersectionality followup 1 of 3)



ABLC’s Historical Nihilism


Buddhism, Apotheosis and the History of Religion

one of the crucial differences between mythology and history is simply the intention of the author it seems to be unfashionable to discuss this and people jump to the conclusion that you want to discuss intentions in some kind of psychologically detailed sense that can never be known but that's not really the point here we can know what genre and what audience and author was writing for most of the time we can clearly identify the difference between a morality lecture intended for adults and a feeble intended for children the difference between Thucydides and Esau is not some kind of subtle psychological difference it's the difference between two genres intended for very different audiences establishing the intention of the author and this fundamental sense really is possible if we're willing to admit to ourselves that the vast majority of these religious texts were not written with an interest in recording history at all when you bring the question of you Hemmer ism into the picture stories with the buddha having dialogues with historical kings become just as questionable as the stories about the buddha having dialogues with indra brahma demons and so on in the same way that ancient greeks wanted to connect with their gods to particular kings it's easy to imagine various motivations for authors to connect the buddha to royal families and it is not easy to evaluate any of these myths as historical evidence if the intention of the author was not to record history at all we cannot look at the Feebles as if they were historical records although it's more plausible that a Buddhist monk spoke to an historical King than to say that he flew into heaven and spoke to Indra both are presented in the same genre is very much the same type of story it definitely is plausible that all of these texts could be fables invented by authors who had a very clear purpose setting down moral and philosophical doctrines for future generations today the philosophy of the Buddha is much easier to know than the history of early Buddhism because we only have the answers to questions that the authors of those ancient texts wanted to answer we have very precise evidence of what the debates were that differentiated early Buddhist philosophy from its hindu rivals meanwhile we still have open debate about what century the Buddha lived and died in about what language he spoke and so on the historical perspective is alien to religious literature because I think it's essentially nihilistic


On Historical Nihilism (历史虚无主义) and Having a Philosophy in General

Human Rights: A Nihilist’s Perspective.


Nihilism If animals don’t have animal rights, why do humans

I had a message in response to me, sent back saying more or less, this is a paraphrase, more or less quoting; “if humans have human rights, why would animals not have rights?” Thus saying I’m using a double standard or perhaps guilty of speciesism or what have you.
Now my perspective that question is just as absurd as saying if humans have poetry, why do animals not have poetry, so my claim here is not that human rights don’t exist, in some absolute ontological sense, I also would not claim that poetry doesn’t exist. However clearly when we’re talking about poetry, we’re talking about something creative and abstract and something that’s you know deeply couched in cultural and aesthetic considerations.
Whether or not something is poetry, I mean I can show you a poem translated from medieval Japanese into English, modern English, and you may ask yourself; Is this poetry? And I can show you Sanskrit poetry translated into English and you may wonder; Is this poetry? And I can show you even poetry of twentieth century poetry written in English in California in the 1960s and you may ask yourself; Is this poetry?
Whether or not something is poetry, whether or not you can recognize it as poetry, whether or not you can appreciate or enjoy it as poetry gets into a lot of tricky questions that are not based in a strict and simple sense on belief, right?
But if you ask me do animals have poetry? My answer is no. Poetry is part of human society and we may write poems for or about animals, we may project poetic qualities unto animals in our works of art, we may you know depict them in a poetic way, we may in a sense have animal poetry within human culture, but this is so to speak a set of abstract and largely aesthetic values human beings have created.
And likewise when we talk about rights, human rights, partly what we’re talking about is a very simple legal idea, I mentioned that in an earlier video, do you or do you not have the right to drink alcohol in a public park, in some countries you do and some you don’t, so that’s the difference between England and Canada, you know do you or do you not have the right to drive a car under these circumstances, those circumstances, it’s different.
And partly it’s a very simple cut-and-dry legal issue, but we all know to a large extent, the reason why people get so emotional about, the reason why people get so passionate about human rights is that it also gets into this realm of aesthetic, poetic and indeed ultimately ethical issues, this is why people you know become so animated about rights and why some people find it convincing or moving to state the case for veganism in terms of animal rights or in terms of human rights, trying to say this this is an extension of the anti-slavery crusade at least.


New Values Politics, Personhood, Meaning of Life

Multiculturalism vs. Social Cohesion: “Trust” as a political concept.


Life is Suffering Have Babies Anyway. (Against Anti-Natalism)

my model of ecology is not based on minimizing my impact in the world it's based on maximizing my impact in the world and now there are some other vegans on YouTube you can take this argument too so if you take this to mod vegan mod vegan identifies as a minimalist and she's someone who's really concerned about using a recyclable glass jar a reasonable glass jar instead of using a plastic jar she's interested in zero right a zero waste lifestyle she's really concerned about the bristles on her on her toothbrush removing the bristles from her toothbrush and biodegrading the toothbrush handle and this kind of stuff she is approaching ecology and for some people this is the first premise that brings them to veganism as an extension her principle is to look at the human being as the center of a chart with a circle around it and the circle indicates harm or negative impacts and if trying to shrink down that circle as much as possible that is not my perspective at all I've said this in videos but I think more than one year ago I remember doing podcasts on this I see myself in the center of that circle.
It's not a situation where you should think of yourself as a vampire sucking the blood at a planet Earth who's trying to put yourself out of minimal diet try to cut down on how much you're sucking of the ecology if that's what your life really is and that's who you really are you have to change but I think fundamentally this antinatalism is basically in ideologies for self pitying video game players who you know don't want to deal with the political reality I talked about in the first 10-15 minutes of this video they don't really want to deal with the ecological reality and they don't want to take on an active role of fighting this war whether it's the war against Isis or the role for fundamental you know ecological change the war however you see it to make the world a better place to change things here and now for the future but as soon as you take on any goals like that as soon as you become a goal oriented person then you're not just talking about the dot in the middle and remove reducing the halo of harm that you're doing you're not thinking about this in terms of harm reduction you're looking at a balance because now there are two dots on the map right there's you and there's the harm you're doing and there's the positive outcome you're in pursuit of whether that's helping starving people trying to prevent Korean age away from going extinct running for the Green Party or trying to conquer Mosul whatever it is now you've got a goal and now instead of harm reduction and trying to have zero kids and trying to use zero plastic or whatever it is now you're saying okay how do I get from here to there as fast as possible with as big an impact as possible making the most change I can make making the most positive change we can and how can I in a responsible way obviously eliminate irresponsible waste and harm to get from here to there.


The Nihilistic Approach to Humanitarian & Political Engagement.

Nietzsche’s “Slave Morality” (& Vegan Gains): Is Philosophy a Science or Showbusiness?

Atheism as an ideology (agnostic vs. nihilist)

Max Stirner’s philosophy (in/and my life)

Schopenhauer’s philosophy (in/and my life)

Friendship, the perpetual parting of ways.

Arbitrary “Lines” in Ecology, Ethics, and Animal Rights. (Vegan)

Ethics: Vegans, Vasectomies, Flexitarians… questions of good and evil.

Happiness, obduracy and the meaning of life.

Advice Nobody Wants to Hear [Ep. 001]

“Dogma”: Axiomatic & Pragmatic Thinking in Vegan Politics.

Ethics: Vegans, Vasectomies, Flexitarians… questions of good and evil.

Happiness is overrated, narcissism is overrated.

Happiness, obduracy and the meaning of life.

Veganism is not a philosophy; vegans are not a community.

Karl Popper’s philosophy (in/and my life)

Nationalism & the mere concept of “Good People”. (vegan / vegans / veganism)

Beautiful (vegan / vegans / veganism)

Debating Meditation with Buddhists: the Fallacy of Having Faith in a Feeling…

Is Veganism based on belief? Should it be?

The Conspiracy Theory Mentality.

Practical Nihilism: Stop Believing You're "A Good Person".

Nihilist Philosophy: Beyond Belief (in Truth, Good & Evil).