Is honey okay to eat?

[PsYcHo]

For those of you who don't know, I initially came to this forum to confirm my suspicion that Vegans were crazy persons who cared more about plants than people.

Being objective, I decided to listen to these crazy people, and actually watched some of the documentaries they recommended. (I assumed they were going to be combative and planned to be an ass, but they were nice and suggested I learn a few things.)

I learned a lot, but still haven't made the full switch to Veganism. (I go by PsYcHo, so my morality may not be on par with those who are Vegan, but I try to be moral.....mostly.. )

I know this is a divided topic, so I'd like to hear what members think.

It came to mind because recently I had a sore throat, and for me that usually means it will get progressively worse for about 3 or 4 days, then spread to my chest and become a nasty cold/flu. I had heard that raw honey has antibacterial properties (so my sickness was likely a bacterial issue, not a virus, since viruses don't respond to antibacterial meds....note for everyone who goes to the doctor for a cold and takes antibiotics.)

As soon as I felt my throat getting sore and not going away, I began taking a teaspoon of raw honey regularly, not really expecting it to help but hoping anyway. To my surprise, it did help, and by day three (when normally I would be barely able to tolerate food and running a fever) I felt like I had dodged a bacterial bullet.

So what are your thoughts on honey, both in general and in a medicinal sense?

[Sapphire Lightning]

Can't answer your poll as it is set up to be ambiguous. If it was stated as "Is honey Vegan?" I could answer it.

In that vein, no it isn't vegan as it exploits a sentient being, and causes harm (stealing their winter food stores and replacing it with high fructose corn syrup). I know that most do not care about insects much as their level of sentience is small but there are other reasons to not use farmed honey bees.

The big one is the transporting of honey bee hives to places where pollinators are needed. On the surface this sounds like a good thing. The bees get their pollen, the cucumbers get to mature and humans get to take honey. But the caveat is the destruction of native bee species. This pushes for a monoculture, and is part of why we are seeing bee colony collapse. I am sure there are better ways to deal with a sore throat than honey as well. To me, honey is not a major focus (although I do avoid it, especially for the effects that it has on native bee populations, as well as the fact that it is literal vomit) but there are very good reasons to not monoculture bees, especially if we want stable crops in the future.

[PsYcHo]

Can't answer your poll as it is set up to be ambiguous. If it was stated as "Is honey Vegan?" I could answer it.

I was trying to be inclusive to non-Vegans in the poll, but I see your point. I'll see if I can re-word it.

I have concerns about colony collapse as well, but I was led to believe that was due to pesticides.

You mentioned that taking honey steals the bee's winter food stores. Real question- Does this lead to the bees dying in the winter? (I haven't researched this) If so, I may have to change my stance. If not, I and my partner plant many flowering plants that attract pollinators. I may take their honey, but they take my pollen.

Thanks for the response, I'll change the wording on the poll. (I'm trying to get input from both Vegan and non Vegans.)

[NindriIndri]

In short, I would say honey is not vegan for the simple reason that at least some bees die in the process of taking the honey from them and these are unnecessary deaths because we have ways of obtaining nutritionally similar foods (sugar, agave syrup, maple syrup etc.). Having said that, there are different methods of obtaining it - apiculture is very popular in my country and a lot of people keep beehives near their houses and cottages, never move them and traditionally feed them sugar (not HFS) during the winter. Still, the majority of these people keep bees because it's their hobby and they like honey and less because they would care about the welfare of the bees or the environment.

For a sore throat, I highly recommend golden milk (with plant milk) or pressed ginger with a bit of lemon juice and agave syrup.

[Sapphire Lightning]

As far as the poll, you could add answers for vegans and non vegans. IE "I am a vegan, but think it is vegan" then "I am not a vegan and thin it is vegan" etc.

When it comes the other stuff in there, I do not have the data at my side, but from what I remember, replacing their natural food with sugar does cause many bees to die. I will look in to it again later for a more appropriate reply. (Also, you WANT them to steal your pollen! It helps the plants germinate! And makes for pretty flowers!)

My stance on bees and other pollinators is to set up stands for them to naturally set up shop, and let them do their thing. IE Give nature a place to set up and let nature just be nature. Prolly best in most cases, as you aren't monoculturing.

[PsYcHo]

For a sore throat, I highly recommend golden milk (with plant milk) or pressed ginger with a bit of lemon juice and agave syrup.

What is golden milk?

And I do take ginger for it's digestive benefits, but I have to say I paid 10 dollars for a jar of honey, and it worked to stop the progression of my sore throat-sore chest- crippling sickness. (I'm thankful to the bees for their honey, it's not like I kick them in the face and steal their lunches. I specifically bought from a small entrepreneur to ensure I wasn't using mass farmed (and likely fake) honey because small time farmers tend to care for the bees much more than a giant conglomerate.)

[PsYcHo]

(Also, you WANT them to steal your pollen! It helps the plants germinate! And makes for pretty flowers!)

Even though I'm not Vegan, I DO care about bees, and yes, my partner and I specifically plant flowers that are beneficial to pollinators, especially bees. I don't want to hurt bees, but I am cavalier about merely inconveniencing them.

Considering that I only buy honey from small, independent companies, (and since bees are their income, I assume they keep them as happy as possible. I may be wrong, but I believe entire colonies will leave if the queen chooses to fly, which she only does if conditions are not optimal for the hives survival.) is it so wrong for me to enjoy their vomit as much as I do?

Now if small operations are more harmful than good, I may have to rethink my stance, but only if it is much more harmful.

[capgunmatt]

Hi Psycho, what is PsYcHo morality? I'm interested in knowing what you mean.

I consider myself vegan and don't eat honey because it is unnecessary for me and does cause suffering, that said, it's like a very little evil compared to other uses of animals in my opinion. that said, the cause of suffering unnecessary, not matter how small, is where I draw the line. I don't need to cause any bees to die, so I avoid it! if I needed for medicine or something, then it would be 'necessary'.

[PsYcHo]

Hi Psycho, what is PsYcHo morality? I'm interested in knowing what you mean.

Hello capgunmatt; I see you are new to the forum, so Welcome!

My morality lies somewhere between someone who eats humans for food, and a full Vegan.

I consider myself vegan and don't eat honey because it is unnecessary for me and does cause suffering, that said, it's like a very little evil compared to other uses of animals in my opinion. that said, the cause of suffering unnecessary, not matter how small, is where I draw the line. I don't need to cause any bees to die, so I avoid it! if I needed for medicine or something, then it would be 'necessary'.

Since you are new, I will say with sincerity that I respect where you are coming from, but for me personally, it takes more than just small amount of suffering for me to avoid eating something. In other words, I have no problem with honey, I have no problem eating crustaceans (I accept that they are sentient, but their level of sentience doesn't bother me to consume them) I also eat fish and occasionally fowl. I don't pretend to have the moral high-ground, because I don't. I'm PsYcHo because I accept that it isn't moral to eat certain creatures, but I do anyway. Also dairy, it makes up a large portion of my diet now.

I was an avid carnist, but now I avoid pork like the plague, beef like aids, and all mammals for the most part. (Unlike most carnists, I have actually personally killed and skinned my own food. I think anyone who eats meat should be required to do the same. )

There's a reason my pony avatar is coated in blood....

The above is true, but mostly I'm harmless. any idea what 42 means?

[capgunmatt]

42: the meaning of life???


Thanks for the warm welcome.

I accept where you are coming from too. My choice to not eat honey is a personal one - not one I adopt simply because it is defined as vegan. I obviously set my standards (of suffering necessary to cause) at a different place than you do, even though we agree on the same set of facts. It is my choice to identify any sentient being as an individual that I would grant rights such that I would not use them at all, but in saying that, I understand that every ethical choice has many relevant factors. For me avoiding honey is not coming at a high cost, and so avoiding it is easy, and even though honey causes only a little bit of suffering, I choose not to cause that amount. For others, avoiding honey or other animal products is a highly inconvenient thing, and so they choose to use them.

I can appreciate that different factors influence different people in their ethical decisions, and hence I don't go around expecting everyone to be like me. That doesn't mean I don't do advocacy, just that I try to make it clear I am not judging others by my standards (even if it is true that I'd rather they agreed with me on many issues), but that I would implore most people to live according to their own standards, much like you are doing, and on the other end of the spectrum, I want to make the world vegan by default by working towards creating a world that is easier and easier to be vegan in acts. I think most people don't think about the animals' perspective, and that if they did, they would share my view that to avoid animal use is good. To that end... activism both on the individual and societal levels!

I also worked at abattoirs, and meat factories... never made the connection until later in life.

Kind regards