What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Vegan message board for support on vegan related issues and questions.
Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome, but please keep it within debate topics.
Post Reply
Take5
Junior Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:10 pm
Diet: Vegan

What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Take5 »

Hi folks

I'm on a bit of a high, I've just had an email from a friend asking for advice on how to go vegan - he wants to follow my example, seeing as how I'm so fit and all that.

So I've pointed him here, of course, and also gave him the nutrition fact.org/Dr Greger stuff and more. I have a couple of other friends who are also interested in more plant-based cooking, so we're having a session in someone's kitchen shortly.

We have all the science now, about the health benefits of a WFPB diet. I want to convince my doctor - and the whole of the practice, really - that they should be telling their patients to go vegan.

I'm 80, and I'm probably the fittest patient in our practice - certainly the fittest retired person. I can't help thinking that if even half of the patients in the practice adopted a vegan diet, the ramifications would be tremendous. The savings alone would be huge.

So my question is:
What is the most persuasive argument to offer my doctor?
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Well, part of the trick is convincing them that recommending a vegan diet won't put off patients. It is a business.

People could see that as basically the doctor handing them a Qur'an and recommending they go to a mosque. Unfortunately there's a lot of politics and sometimes off putting associations people have. PETA isn't helping there.

Part of that is using "plant based" and "vegetarian" instead of vegan to ease people into the idea.
Also, it can help to not recommend 100%, but say recommend reducing the days of eating meat and eating plant based on certain days. And not worrying about dairy and egg in things initially (just not going out of their way to consume them directly).

There's mechanistic reason and some direct evidence to believe even just spacing out meat can help a lot with the microbiome. If meat just passes by occasionally the bacteria won't evolve to specialize in digesting it, and the kind of bacteria prevalent in meat (which can be more pathogenic) may become less prevalent. It could even reduce the risk of antibiotic resistant infections just to have it less often. It's not clear how often is less often enough.

Ideally people wouldn't eat it at all, but you have to ease them into it. There's not as much evidence comparing no meat to very little meat, so I would focus on convincing them of the value of recommending certain days to avoid meat, or choosing one day a week to have meat if they want it and two days a week to have a serving of fish (because this is mainstream recommendation). That kind of recommendation will likely be more acceptable to your doctor and will go over better with patients.
Also, we have to make sure they have a couple servings of beans or legumes every day, some walnuts, and a serving of non-dairy unsweetened calcium fortified plant milk, and possibly a multivitamin. People can get plenty of calcium from veggies, but the unfortunate reality is that most people won't eat enough veggies in the day to get there and your doctor doesn't want to risk doing harm. Positive recommendations are just as important as negative ones, but they have to be attainable for most people and mostly "fool proof". Health can be complicated and not all people follow directions very well, particularly if they're hard to follow.

We have to take what we can get. I think people would see a lot of improvement with just that in addition to avoiding added sugar and trying to choose whole grains when they can.
You have to strike a balance between simplicity of message and safety of message. Just "go vegan" may see people replacing fat free yogurt and fish with Oreos and potato chips, and that wouldn't make them healthier. We have to give some clarity to replacement, and make it clear that it's not dogmatic so people will be open to it.
Jamie in Chile
Senior Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:40 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Jamie in Chile »

Going vegan means a strict avoidance of all animal products, and there is not enough evidence to say if a strict avoidance (rather than say a 90% reduction of animal products) is really necessary for health reasons. Therefore you cannot honestly argue for going [strictly] vegan on a purely health basis, but only mostly vegan. (However for people that are already overweight, and/or have high cholesterol and/or prior history of heart disease, you could perhaps argue for 99.9%. And for older people you might argue for closer to 100% than 90%.)

Perhaps a doctor could argue for reduced meat, and if they see the same person again, argue for vegetarianism if the reduced meat worked out and maybe eventually (mostly) vegan.

To answer your question, I would say to your doctor that that you went vegan because you saw that almost all national health organizations now say that a well-planned vegan diet is perfectly healthy for all stages of health, and that studies have shown benefits of a vegan diet including reduced heart disease and perhaps less cancer and diabetes, and that this is why you decided to go vegan, and that, like many, many others around the world, you have had a positive experience. This will leave an impression on him or her that will be factored into their future decision making. A doctor is not likely to decide what to do because of a patient.

If you happen to bump into your doctor outside of his place of work or have a chance to talk to him in a social occassion, it might be easier to try and tell him or her what do do, otherwise he is not likely to just want to be told what to do by you.

The above post is great, by the way. I agree with all of Brimstone's salad's comments.
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Jebus »

Jamie in Chile wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:22 pmGoing vegan means a strict avoidance of all animal products, and there is not enough evidence to say if a strict avoidance (rather than say a 90% reduction of animal products) is really necessary for health reasons. Therefore you cannot honestly argue for going [strictly] vegan on a purely health basis,
I'm sure that theoretically you could devise a diet with 10% animal products that would outperform a high fat, high sugar vegan diet. However, there is enough evidence supporting the claim that the most commonly consumed animal products, such as dairy, eggs, poultry, and cow meat should be avoided.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Jebus »

Hi Take5, Are you familiar with the Physicians Committee for responsible Medicine? Perhaps your MD would be interested in having a look:

http://www.pcrm.org/kickstartHome
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Jebus wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:13 am Hi Take5, Are you familiar with the Physicians Committee for responsible Medicine? Perhaps your MD would be interested in having a look:

http://www.pcrm.org/kickstartHome
Unfortunately they still recommend low fat, which isn't very helpful. It's hard to keep up, and there's no compelling evidence that healthy plant fats like from nuts are harmful. Ridiculous recommendations like limiting yourself to a tablespoon of chopped nuts a day. :roll:
Eat as much healthy poly and mono-unsaturated fat as you want, particularly from whole plant food (with calories under control), just stay well out of ketosis.
User avatar
Steve Wagar
Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:34 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Connecticut

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Steve Wagar »

The important thing is to encourage good behavior and not condemn bad behavior. Yes, a medical practice operating in our society could alienate people with the word vegan or by insisting on an entirely plant-based diet. Most people will be terrified and listen no further.

Although getting their patients to go vegan is the healthiest outcome, it is too much for most to bite off. Given the extremely unhealthy state of most people's diets, I would say the most critical dietary advice a medical practice should be providing the average person is to clean up their diet first by focusing on real foods with less processing, and secondarily by advocating plant-based foods. If the practice can recommend mainstream support for cleaner diets higher in plant content, it will get people thinking in the right direction. I don't know if this forum has a list of such resources. One that comes to mind is: Michael Pollan's "In Defense of Food: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." His message is exactly right, except for the "not too much" part -- I think that was a mistake on his part -- you should eat as much as you like provided you prioritize good foods over bad. Possibly the "Eat this, not that" series...except that I think it ends up endorsing so many questionable foods. Or Clean Eating magazine, which has both fully vegan menus and also uses meat (but much less than plants, and it encourages reduction, e.g. Meatless Mondays). People are much more likely to listen if they aren't being told it is all or nothing. Then, once they are listening, they will learn more. The proof that plant-based is better is still emerging, so being dogmatic is alienating. It takes a long time for people to shift their perspective, so slow and steady wins the race.
Jamie in Chile
Senior Member
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:40 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Jamie in Chile »

I agree with not too much, he is talking about avoiding becoming overweight or obese which leads to many health problems and remember he was writing first and forecast to a US audience where obesity is a major problem. However you are on to something as well in that if you eat fruit and vegetables you will rarely stuff yourself of them until you are too fat, whereas once you get started on something like jaffa cakes it can be hard to stop.

Where I disagree with Pollan was his ethical defence of meat eating, I think that chapter of the Omnivore's Dilemna was written by someone who was just looking for an excuse to eat meat, and then found one, as he more or less (implicitly) admits.
Take5
Junior Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:10 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by Take5 »

Thanks, folks. Sorry for the delay in responding - I've been pretty busy with other things..

I pretty much agree with all everyone has said - except for the "It's a business" comment by brim. I'm in England, where the NHS is - just - still a service.

Last time I saw him I said I'd send him some research about the health benefits of a vegan diet. There is so much out there - and I do like Neal Barnard - but I was thinking about Greger's 'How not to die' video, or 'What the health' along with Esselstyn's reversal of CAD.

What do you guys think?
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: What would persuade an MD to advise his patients to go vegan?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

I wouldn't send him "What the health", it has a few mistakes and the doctor won't take it as credible.
How not to die may be a decent reference, but I don't feel like he'd be very convinced by any of that and instead he may take it as speculation. I guess you can try. :)
Post Reply