To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

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Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
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VGnizm
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To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by VGnizm »

First of all I would like to excuse my long absence. Sharing and exchanging is a personal pleasure for me and it has been so very busy with the Life Loving Foods launch that I have not been able to sit down and write much. It is still very busy and seemingly it will remain such I hope but everything is gradually coming together and it is allowing me to do multiple things at once. It is really ideal since it gives a full meaning to my new Life Loving lifestyle. And now the website also has a blog section for Life Loving Words where it is possible to write about Veganism in general and other topics. As such I can now indulge my personal pleasure through my work as well. What a luxury :)

A very interesting discovery that has developed due to my work in developing vegan food products is that Vegans do not like cruelty rich foods and therefore do not like things that resemble them. A vegan beef burger has very little appeal because it mimics beef. In that case why is the food industry busy making vegan milk, cheeses and cold-cuts. Is it for Vegans or for people who want to eat Vegan. It seems the 2 are not the same. Or perhaps many Vegans are only aware of the food habit but not about Sentience which means they are non ideological Vegans.

It would be very interesting to have feedback on this because it is quite relevant for my line of work. I know that almost no one that I meet has even heard of the term Sentience. But they have generally been non-vegans. But are there also many Vegans who are not ideological Vegans?
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emmy138
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by emmy138 »

I can only speak for myself, but as someone who leans more on the ideological side of things, I love faux stuff. If it were affordable and healthier, I would eat mock meats and faux cheeses and ice creams and vegan mayo every day.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Welcome back!

Most of the consumers of vegan foods like mock meats are actually non-vegans looking for healthier food, but they can also appreciate the environmental and ethical benefits of them.

I think the best example to learn this is Adam Savage sitting down for the impossible burger here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF9bf9uKQQk

The cook mentions in that clip that the vegetarians tend actually not to like the impossible burger because it's too meaty.

It's a spectrum, though. I think most vegans actually enjoy mock meats, BUT we want them to taste like spices, and not taste too meaty. You can think of it like the "uncanny valley".

I enjoy veggie burgers, but I'm pretty sure I would not enjoy the impossible burger. After not eating meat for some time, you can kind of lose your taste for it. But we don't lose our taste for delicious spices, only the more metallic and putrid elements of meat we come to recognize.

There are a few fringe vegans who oppose mock meats, but I'm pretty sure that this is only a vocal minority. Most vegans appreciate their existence and even enjoy them now and then (as long as they don't taste too close to animal meat). The same of milk replacements. I don't think most vegans would enjoy a milk replacement that had the same putrid vomit taste of cow milk. I don't think most people, even non-vegans, like the taste of milk.

Cheese is another matter, since those flavors come from bacteria and fermentation/culturing. I think there are taste identical vegan cheeses already, and they're pretty good. The only missing link is the texture. I don't think that would bother vegans to have an exact cheese copy. Maybe it's too distant in flavor from the animal products it comes from. Chao cheese by field roast is pretty close (the original flavor), and that's pretty good.
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DarlBundren
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by DarlBundren »

I tend to eat a whole food, plant-based diet, but I do like mock meats, and I don't find it gross if they taste meaty. I'd definitely try the impossible burger.
Jen
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by Jen »

I don't mind if food mimics animal based products. I'm used to them for the most part. But the burgers that are supposed to bleed kinds make me feel weirded out and that is probably because when I was eating an omnivorous diet, I wanted the meats cooked well done. No blood. I was the type of person who'd flip out after biting into gristle in a chicken leg. I never wanted reminders of what I was actually eating.
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VGnizm
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by VGnizm »

Thanks for the valuable feedback so far and i have the impression that faux meat does not seem to be a problem. I am assuming that most of the feedback came from ideological vegans.

But perhaps i should ask since how long these people have been Vegans. Someone who never ate meat because born into a Vegan family for example might not have a taste for it so won't miss it but then again might like the taste and texture if they try it ( real meat ).

Another question comes to mind and that is to know if meat consumption is an acquired habit or if people enjoy meat for some reason? And is it because the meat industry pushes it on us or because it is something special. I for myself am a recent vegan and i can say that i have very much lost appetite for meat and do find the smell a little repulsive since becoming Vegan.

But if i look into history and famous quotes it seems that meat consumption was considered differently.

' But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy' . – Plutarch – born.46

The 'mouthful of flesh' seems to be something coveted. Maybe a luxury back then?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

VGnizm wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:52 pm Thanks for the valuable feedback so far and i have the impression that faux meat does not seem to be a problem. I am assuming that most of the feedback came from ideological vegans.
I would say the dogmatic vegans, mostly the deontological ones.
VGnizm wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:52 pmBut perhaps i should ask since how long these people have been Vegans. Someone who never ate meat because born into a Vegan family for example might not have a taste for it so won't miss it but then again might like the taste and texture if they try it ( real meat ).
Most people who reject mock meats didn't grow up vegan; I think it comes from the deontological dogma.
I think you could compare it to opposition to simulated porn (of the minor variety). The simulation isn't hurting anybody, but some people are OK with it and some oppose it. It's likely that the simulation actually replaces the real thing, and helps people. But some people will always see it as bad because it looks similar. It's hard to overcome those biases.
VGnizm wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:52 pmI for myself am a recent vegan and i can say that i have very much lost appetite for meat and do find the smell a little repulsive since becoming Vegan.
A lot of vegans report that.

I think for mock meats that don't taste like meat, they add a lot of texture and variety to a meal, and are also more satiating. That may be the case for meat classically, regardless of the taste.
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VGnizm
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by VGnizm »

I would like to develop on this a little and kindly ask for feedback again.

I used to eat meat regularly until becoming Vegan recently. It does not make sense that I dislike meat now because of taste and smell but only because the taste and smell is now negatively associated with a mental attitude.

In other words it has lost appeal because it is associated with causing suffering and exploitation. This confirms why many agreed that faux meats are desirable and it is a question of taste only. Many omnivore eaters prefer well done and well seasoned meats as well regardless of the base substance.

Such a conclusion leads me to ask myself another question about suffering and exploitation in general. What as a Vegan is my position on human suffering and exploitation? A human is the most sentient of beings therefore the suffering is of a major impact. If I refuse to drink milk because it is associated with a suffering cow then how can I for example at the same time sit on a chair manufactured by child exploitation and suffering or enjoy wearing clothes manufactured under similar circumstances?

Is my Vegan attitude directed to food only because it is the tip of the iceberg that I encounter on a daily basis or is it the iceberg?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

VGnizm wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:50 am I used to eat meat regularly until becoming Vegan recently. It does not make sense that I dislike meat now because of taste and smell but only because the taste and smell is now negatively associated with a mental attitude.
Very plausible.
VGnizm wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:50 amA human is the most sentient of beings therefore the suffering is of a major impact. If I refuse to drink milk because it is associated with a suffering cow then how can I for example at the same time sit on a chair manufactured by child exploitation and suffering or enjoy wearing clothes manufactured under similar circumstances?
Sweat shops are unpleasant, but they can be the best jobs available in many areas.
VGnizm wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:50 amIs my Vegan attitude directed to food only because it is the tip of the iceberg that I encounter on a daily basis or is it the iceberg?
Both. When it comes to global issues, it may be the tip, but when it comes to issues we can do something about every day, it's the iceberg.

Veganism isn't the biggest thing, but it's the biggest thing we can actually do something about.
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VGnizm
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Re: To Be or Not to Be Vegan ?

Post by VGnizm »

Thanks for the excellent feedback and i would like to re-comment on the following

" Sweat shops are unpleasant, but they can be the best jobs available in many areas. "

The idea was not to criticize child labor but rather to ask where does deontological Veganism stand as regards issues of human suffering and exploitation?

If as a Vegan i am empathetic towards a cow that i will never know and i impose upon myself a code of conduct and a sacrifice to accommodate it's sentient interests why do i not have the same obligation towards a human starving in a far away land?

That is probably closer to the initial question.
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