Why are B12 supplements helpful?

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Jebus
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Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by Jebus »

I can't get my head around this one. Available research indicates that vitamin supplements are useless and some research even indicate that such are harmful. Why is B12 the exception?
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DarlBundren
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by DarlBundren »

Jebus wrote:Available research indicates that vitamin supplements are useless and some research even indicate that such are harmful.
With available research you mean Greger? (serious question).

I have never researched this, but:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764205
Multivitamin/mineral supplement use may prevent cancer in individuals with poor or suboptimal nutritional status. The heterogeneity in the study populations limits generalization to United States population. Multivitamin/mineral supplements conferred no benefit in preventing cardiovascular disease or cataract, and may prevent advanced age-related macular degeneration only in high-risk individuals. The overall quality and quantity of the literature on the safety of multivitamin/mineral supplements is limited.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28336109
Taken together, these findings indicate that MVMs can be safe for long-term use (>10 y).
But:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28096125
Taken together, we found insufficient evidence to support the use of dietary supplements in the primary prevention of cause-specific death, incidence of CVD, and incidence of cancer. The application of some supplements generated small beneficial effects; however, the heterogeneous types and doses of supplements limit the generalizability to the overall population.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28248558
Taken together, vitamin B supplementation was effective in reducing serum homocysteine levels. However, it did not translate into cognitive improvement, indicating that the existing data on vitamin B-induced improvement in cognition by lowering homocysteine levels are conflicting.
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Jebus
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by Jebus »

DarlBundren wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:17 amWith available research you mean Greger?
Greger is not a researcher. However, he does a good job in summarising the research of others. https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/02/26/are-multivitamins-just-a-waste-of-money/
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DarlBundren
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by DarlBundren »

Jebus wrote:Greger is not a researcher. However, he does a good job in summarising the research of others. https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/02/26/are-multivitamins-just-a-waste-of-money/
I like Greger and I have bought his book. However, in my extremely humble opinion, he's too dogmatic about what is not whole-food (and I follow a whole-food, plant-based diet myself). I tend to trust Ginny Messina more and this is her take on the matter:
The research suggests that there are few benefits to taking supplements for those who are already meeting nutrient needs. But, there is no reason to think that using low dose supplements to make up shortfalls in nutrient intake is harmful.
She thinks that all vegans should supplement with B12, most of them with vitamin D and iodine, some of them with calcium and iron, and maybe a few of them with DHA as well.
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Jebus
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

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DarlBundren wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:57 amShe thinks that all vegans should supplement with B12, most of them with vitamin D and iodine, some of them with calcium and iron, and maybe a few of them with DHA as well.
I suspect you missed the point of my original post. I am aware that all reliable health authorities agree that vegans should take B12. I just don't understand why B12 is different from the other vitamin supplements (which the research I have read about indicate as useless).

Regarding Messina's recommendations I understand the B12 and DHA and vitamin D for someone who lives where there is no sunlight. Iodine is somewhat understandable although I prefer to get it from iodised salt. However, I have no idea why she would recommend calcium and iron supplements. Sure, there are lots of vegans who are deficient in these but that doesn't mean they need supplements. They just need to learn to eat a bit better.
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DarlBundren
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by DarlBundren »

Jebus wrote:I suspect you missed the point of my original post
I was questioning your "Available research indicates that vitamin supplements are useless and some research even indicate that such are harmful. " and wondering if that available research was legitimate.
Jebus wrote:However, I have no idea why she would recommend calcium and iron supplements. Sure, there are lots of vegans who are deficient in these but that doesn't mean they need supplements. They just need to learn to eat a bit better.
Ginny Messina wrote:the old “low protein diets reduce calcium needs” theory has taken some real hits in the past years. Based on current understanding–which is admittedly pretty poor–we vegans should strive for the RDA. Our ancestors didn’t drink milk and got all the calcium they needed from wild greens. And even though modern cultivated greens have less, we could get enough calcium just from these foods, too. But the recommendation to eat four or more cups of cooked greens per day makes veganism a hard sell. Without fortified foods, many vegans fall short on calcium.
Ginny Messina wrote:Young women with heavy periods may have a tough time keeping up with iron needs, and again, this is not a problem that is specific to vegans. Rates of iron deficiency anemia are actually very high among pre-menopausal omnivore women.
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Jebus
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by Jebus »

DarlBundren wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:38 amI was questioning your "Available research indicates that vitamin supplements are useless and some research even indicate that such are harmful. " and wondering if that available research was legitimate.
Do you still have a doubt of its legitimacy? Did you read the article I posted?
Ginny Messina wrote:the recommendation to eat four or more cups of cooked greens per day makes veganism a hard sell.
I couldn't disagree more. Having worked as a nutritional consultant, my experience is that it is easy to get people to eat the good stuff. The hard sell is getting people to avoid the bad stuff. In this case I don't even think it's a sell at all. Calcium is so easy for vegans to get. A few servings of tofu per week should be enough. If not, just add a few of your favorite herbs to your food, like thyme, oregano, or cinnamon.
Ginny Messina wrote:Young women with heavy periods may have a tough time keeping up with iron needs, and again, this is not a problem that is specific to vegans.
Well, the only reason they are deficient is that they didn't put much thought and/or effort into it. Iron is so easy to get in a plant based diet.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Supplements are most useful when it's something your diet is missing.
B-12 would probably not be a very useful supplement for somebody eating a large amount of oysters, for example.
If your diet contains substantial amounts, it's not necessary.

A vegan diet benefits from it unless there's a lot in your fortified food. I would still recommend it as a safety net, though, because B-12 is one of the least harmful vitamins there are. And I don't trust food fortification. Labels can be wrong.

Some supplements are dangerous, but B-12 is one of the safest. In extreme doses it can cause mild acne-like symptoms (if you experience those, it's a good idea to cut back a little), but like other water soluble vitamins it's just peed out if you get more than you need so it doesn't build up (as long as you avoid acute toxicity). B-12 should also not interfere meaningfully with absorption of other vitamins or of minerals (some vitamins and minerals can do this).

There are certain vitamins that are good practice to recommend because they're so harmless, and because people probably aren't getting enough of it. Even vegetarians may struggle with optimal levels of B-12.
Remember, this stuff used to be in our [contaminated] water and basically all over us when we lived in less sanitary conditions, and our ancestors supplemented through regularly eating feces too (this is largely where gorillas get their B-12 from). Most modern people probably get suboptimal levels through diet (even meat eaters, particularly older ones who may not absorb it as well).
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DarlBundren
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

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Jebus wrote:Do you still have a doubt of its legitimacy? Did you read the article I posted?
Yes, and it seems to be a good article. Unfortunately, I don't have the time (nor the expertise) to go through all those studies and see if they are good or not. I tend to be skeptic of Greger's opinion on supplements and everything that is animal-related. Usually, it doesn't matter, since I don't eat meat and only supplement with B12/vitamin D.
Jebus wrote:I couldn't disagree more.
She says it is relatively easy to get enough calcium if you are vegan. But, absorption varies widely, depending on a number of factors, and if you happen to be one of those people who, for whatever reason, don't get their daily dose of calcium you could consider supplementing. I think it's reasonable. I'd be more careful with iron, though.
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Re: Why are B12 supplements helpful?

Post by Take5 »

I've been vegan for 14 years, and I've never taken a B12 supplement - never felt the need. My diet includes fortified yeast nutrient (Meridian) and also fortified nooch, so I guess this must be the reason that my B12 was fine from my blood test 7 months ago - I have another test this week.

My iron is a different matter - my haemoglobin levels were always low, even before I became vegan, and last year I was put on iron tablets. Not wishing to take tablets on a regular basis, I looked around and found this Lucky Iron Fish (LIF):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_iron_fish

After 3 months on the tablets, my iron level was 138 - just inside the optimum range. After 3 months using the LIF the level remains at 138 - I'll see where it is now in about a week's time.
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