Veganish Street Talk!

[VGnizm]

Being new to Veganism i enjoy striking up the conversation with people that i know or that i meet and i have been noticing something quite interesting about the general attitude towards the subject.

While speaking with someone who is an ethnic Laco-Vegetarian ( from Indian origins ) I noted that Veganism seems to be excessive to him. Basically the fact of consuming milk is in itself not considered harmful to an animal since it is a natural event and does not induce suffering other than that which is naturally occurring anyway in that a Cow would feed her offspring.

Speaking to a person who is a flexivore but mainly Vegetarian for health benefits the attitude was that taking an egg from a chicken is not harming the chicken directly so why would it be unacceptable? Once the egg has been laid it there is no physical harm to the chicken if it is removed or not.

My response to both of them was to explain that it did not seem to me that the concern for Vegans ( since i am still a baby Vegan i speak with little authority about the subject ) was so much the physical harm as rather it is a question of attitude. Taking milk from the cow for personal consumption is an act of exploitation. Taking the egg from the chicken is taking her offspring and it does cause the chicken emotional harm. Again it is inducing suffering whether we like it or not.

But i took the whole discussion to a higher level so as not to get lost in the quicksand of silly details and i told them that the most remarkable aspect about Veganism to me is not the do’s and don’ts of food habits but rather the fact that Vegans are a people who have voluntarily chosen to sacrifice food pleasure for a Life Loving cause. It is that which is the key to understanding the importance of this movement.

It is like an oasis of universal consciousness in a modern and affluent consumer world. Vegans consider that suffering in itself is a negative act and personal pleasure that comes at a cost of suffering for others cannot be pleasing. It is this open hearted and minded connection with our eco-systems that drew me to this movement. The food taboo is not really my problem as i had personally decided to reduce food to a non-issue in my life about 2 years earlier for weight-loss reasons.



Hani ZEID

VGnizm@gmail.com // www.VGnizm.com
HZ@LifeLovingFoods.com
HZ@VGKebab.com

[DarlBundren]

Hello Vgnizm. Welcome on board. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

My response to both of them was to explain that it did not seem to me that the concern for Vegans ( since i am still a baby Vegan i speak with little authority about the subject ) was so much the physical harm as rather it is a question of attitude. Taking milk from the cow for personal consumption is an act of exploitation. Taking the egg from the chicken is taking her offspring and it does cause the chicken emotional harm. Again it is inducing suffering whether we like it or not.

I, for one, don't consider taking milk from a cow or an egg from a hen to be an act of exploitation. Or rather, I don't think that 'exploitation' is always immoral. For example, we know that many breeds of hens don't really take care of their eggs. 'Broodiness' varies by breed and individual and it's usually considered to be an undesirable trait in factory-farmed chickens. If I knew for a fact that a hen were not concerned about my taking her eggs, I would not consider that act to be unethical. Likewise, If a calf dies and the cow can still be milked, I would not necessarily consider drinking her milk as bad. Of course, most of us don't own farms and since we cannot read these animals' minds, it's just much more practical and ethical to avoid eating and drinking their products altogether, especially if there are plenty of other things we can thrive on.

But i took the whole discussion to a higher level so as not to get lost in the quicksand of silly details and i told them that the most remarkable aspect about Veganism to me is not the do’s and don’ts of food habits but rather the fact that Vegans are a people who have voluntarily chosen to sacrifice food pleasure for a Life Loving cause. It is that which is the key to understanding the importance of this movement.

I agree. It's great to see people willing to do the right thing. I don't even think I have sacrificed food pleasure that much. Actually, I used to have a much more monotonous diet before going vegan. Now, there's always a good reason to drive (or bike) to the local Indian restaurant.

Vegans consider that suffering in itself is a negative act

Well, sometimes it is, but there are many things I am ready to suffer for. Otherwise, I would not have renewed my gym membership.

I have just seen that you are a Muslim. Can I ask you if your religion has impacted your diet in any way?

[VGnizm]

Hi DarlBundren,

Thanks so much for your lengthy reply and i appreciate your valuable feedback.

As for being a muslim it is good to note that besides alcohol the main issue with food taboo is meat based ( animals have to be slaughtered in a ritual ) or it being pork meat . So not eating meat in the Western world was generally the case for me. Veganism has only had a positive effect in that case for me since now i do not have to even worry about what i eat being acceptable or not

[DarlBundren]

There are some halal butchers where I live. Unfortunately, halal and kosher meat is generally more unethical than 'regular' one. Shechita, for example, doesn't allow animals to be stunned prior to slaughter. You definitelly made the right choice.

I've read you have a blog. Was that one of your posts?

[VGnizm]

Yes DarlBundren it is a post from my VGnizm.com blog. I write there often and also publish and chat on FB and others. Trying to spread the word as best as possible

Hani

[NonZeroSum]

My response to both of them was to explain that it did not seem to me that the concern for Vegans ( since I am still a baby Vegan I speak with little authority about the subject ) was so much the physical harm as rather it is a question of attitude. Taking milk from the cow for personal consumption is an act of exploitation. Taking the egg from the chicken is taking her offspring and it does cause the chicken emotional harm. Again it is inducing suffering whether we like it or not.

It is interesting to understand where these general attitudes come from, we’re almost always talking about the societal norm and the strain of breaking with social conformity. Is it worth it? Will it cause more backlash? What are the most effective means at making 'not causing unnecessary suffering to animals' the new normal.

Interest consequentialist's way of dealing with this is to start from the moral vegetarian position that ending sentient life unnecessarily is immoral and then 'tentatively' rejects by-products from animal exploitation, because you can't say all animal use is immoral only that the consumer system of delivery doesn't allow us to easily distinguish the exceptions to the rule.[1]

I’ve gone on to explain in other threads how I think the ontologies expanded upon under evolutionary meta-ethics and ethical nihilism serve a better basis for moving towards more productive, compassionate, complex societies, than the current neo-liberal malaise we're living through.[2][3][4]

So I agree with you when you say “It is this open hearted and minded connection with our eco-systems that drew me to this movement.” I pledge my sword to yours John Snow in the coming wars ahead, jokes aha.

While speaking with someone who is an ethnic Laco-Vegetarian ( from Indian origins ) I noted that Veganism seems to be excessive to him. Basically the fact of consuming milk is in itself not considered harmful to an animal since it is a natural event and does not induce suffering other than that which is naturally occurring anyway in that a Cow would feed her offspring.

As for your ‘ethnic Laco-Vegetarian’ friend we’re having an interesting discussion over at the 'Culture clash and cultural sensitivity' thread,[5] about how to best modify these traditions, so they keep their cultural value.

One Hare Krishna organization I know of acts as a cow sanctuary,[6] and lets the cows live out their life in luxury with a lot of pampering, whilst relieving the pressure on their udders through milking.

Living in India on average wages it might certainly be unhealthy to live on a vegan diet and find everything you need. And it is undeniable that animal agriculture was a boon to the Indus Valley Civilisation.

We just have to look at what is best for our civilization moving forward, feeding animals precious resources so we can eat the meat is inefficient when we know how to grow a variety of crops, and have them distributed widely.

Allowing cows and chickens to breed and be 'broody' over their young by re-wilding a new gene pool that is more hardy can survive better with less input, not having the same artificially selected problems, is the most compassionate route to go down.

As for being a muslim it is good to note that besides alcohol the main issue with food taboo is meat based ( animals have to be slaughtered in a ritual ) or it being pork meat . So not eating meat in the Western world was generally the case for me. Veganism has only had a positive effect in that case for me since now i do not have to even worry about what i eat being acceptable or not

There are some halal butchers where I live. Unfortunately, halal and kosher meat is generally more unethical than 'regular' one. Shechita, for example, doesn't allow animals to be stunned prior to slaughter. You definitelly made the right choice.

As for whether Islamic traditions causes more suffering by putting restrictions on what is acceptable meat to eat or not, it is a tricky question. It certainly doesn’t help that far right groups have made any activism we can do on the subject thoroughly toxic.[7]

____________________

References:

1. Consequentialist ethics
— http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=785
— Tentative Veganism - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNDXKbzN0i8
2. Evolutionairy meta-ethics
— http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2896&start=10
— http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2944&start=204
3. Ethical Nihilism
—  http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2998
4. Existentialism and Nomadic Ethics
—  http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2973
5. Culture clash and cultural sensitivity
—  http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3029
6. Bhaktivedanta Manor – Hare Krishna Temple » Cow Protection
—  http://www.bhaktivedantamanor.co.uk/home/?page_id=26
7. Hypocrisy of Britain First
—  http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2975

[VGnizm]

+ 1 to you NonZeroSum for your comments !

Wonder what the mathematical result of that equation is

[NonZeroSum]

Wonder what the mathematical result of that equation is

Aha trying to lay out a cognitive map of the different philosophies you will encounter on the forum was more tricky than I thought.

Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIlW-ovx0Y

[VGnizm]

LOLLL!!!!!

Very interesting and though i am sure it was unintentional you have ended up +3 because i have just posted about Survival of the Fittest and Social Justice ( Feudalism fits very well ) and i am posting in the quick hack recipes a 5 minute ++ hack for Vegan Coconut Yogurt.

So i guess the mathematical answer to either would resolve the NonZeroSum question

Hani

VGnizm.com