Honey

[EquALLity]

Is honey unethical?
My friend who's ostrovegan is wondering. According to her doctor, it's good for digestion, so she's considering having it again. I don't really know much about it, because not eating honey doesn't really bother me.
It's from a bug (albeit a sort of cute one). It was touched by bugs. Eww. I like maple syrup better.

[Red]

Why would you need honey for digestive purposes on a vegan diet? Beans and veggies should suffice. Better yet, take some fiber pills if you are still bleeding from the asshole (couldn't think of anything clever).

Plus, who is to say that what the doctor said is true? I'm not saying that he is without a doubt wrong, but there is a lot of misinformation put there, even spread by professionals.

[brimstoneSalad]

My friend who's ostrovegan is wondering. According to her doctor, it's good for digestion, so she's considering having it again.

According to her naturopathic doctor?
She needs to find another doctor, that's total bullshit.

Here's the first credible looking article that popped up on the issue for me:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/522511-does-honey-help-digestion/

One 1994 study, published in "Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine," found that ulcer-causing H. pylori bacteria were sensitive to solutions of New Zealand manuka honey. A clinical study reported in the April 2010 edition of "The British Journal of Nutrition," however, concluded that manuka honey was not effective against H. pylori in healthy individuals. Researchers commented that no beneficial effects on intestinal bacteria were witnessed after the test group ate about 1 1/3 tbsp. of manuka honey every day for 30 days.

Bacteria are sensitive to a lot of things in petri dishes. It doesn't actually do anything in the body aside from raise your blood sugar and make you gain weight from the empty calories.

If she has H. Pylori, she needs to see an expert to have it tested for antibiotic sensitivity, then go on a full course with acid blockers... not this quack recommending honey.

Here's an actual paper:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4465045/
Scroll down to Bee Products. They echo that in their research; works in a petri dish, but not in a human stomach.

4.1. Bee products

Honey in general, and a specific honey harvested from the flowers of the manuka bush, (Leptospermum scoparium) have activity against H. pylori and other bacteria in vitro [51,89–92]. However, in vivo studies have not been able to demonstrate eradication of the bacterium [59]. A large body of work over the years by Peter Molan and colleagues in New Zealand has demonstrated effects of manuka honey on wound healing and other bacteria-related pathologies [142]. In the case of Helicobacter infection, Molan and others have invoked both peroxide and non-peroxide mediated mechanisms [93,95]. Of the non-peroxide effects, (phytochemical content and simple osmotic effects), the osmotic effects appear to best explain the in vitro evidence [89] and this may be why in vivo activity of honey(s) against H. pylori has not been demonstrated [59]. It is impractical to maintain a solution of, for example, 15% honey at the gastric epithelium for sufficient time for it to have direct osmotic effects.

Propolis (a flavonoid-rich by-product of bees) also manifests anti-H. pylori activity in vitro [96,97], that has not been confirmed in vivo. Propolis also has anti-inflammatory and immune stimulatory activity [97] – both mechanisms clearly being important in the pathophysiology of H. pylori infection.

Basically, it's bunk in vivo. And if you read on, huge numbers of things are said to work in petri dishes. It's trivial to kill bacteria by adding random things to it.

From their conclusion:

At this time the dietary components for treatment of H. pylori infection that have the greatest evidence to support them are broccoli sprouts, cranberry juice, essential oils of a number of spices (e.g. cloves, and blackcurrant), and some probiotic formulations. Based upon the current state of the science, a dietary approach to reduce the inflammatory response to H. pylori infection appears plausible.

Those are the only things that had credible evidence in this review. Not honey.

I've never heard a credible reason to use honey, but I've heard plenty of myths propagated by alt-med people and probably the honey industry.

I would recommend that she try some vegan probiotics, and eat more raw broccoli (particularly sprouts), and possibly some cranberry juice, as the review paper suggested. Aside from that, fire this honey prescribing quack "doctor", and see a real specialist to have the H. Pylori sampled and tested for susceptibility to antibiotics and treat it properly.

[brimstoneSalad]

Plus, who is to say that what the doctor said is true? I'm not saying that he is without a doubt wrong, but there is a lot of misinformation put there, even spread by professionals.

Yep. It's probably not a real doctor, but a naturopath. If it is a real doctor, I would be tempted to report that quack for malpractice. Does he/she prescribe garlic for aids and coffee enemas for cancer too?

I'm not a big fan of ignorant people, but I really hate ignorant people with credentials who represent themselves as medical experts.

[Red]

Yep. It's probably not a real doctor, but a naturopath. If it is a real doctor, I would be tempted to report that quack for malpractice. Does he/she prescribe garlic for aids and coffee enemas for cancer too?

Maybe these people should read a book. Probably believes that covering one eye then swapping to the other cures pneumonia.

I'm not a big fan of ignorant people, but I really hate ignorant people with credentials who represent themselves as medical experts.

I don't hate ignorant people necessarily, since we are all ignorant, but I do think that people who are experts and spread misinformation need to die out. Also people who can easily learn basic information, but refuse in order to not contradict their beliefs. Or meat eaters who still eat meat even after knowing the immortality of it.

[Red]

Yep. It's probably not a real doctor, but a naturopath. If it is a real doctor, I would be tempted to report that quack for malpractice. Does he/she prescribe garlic for aids and coffee enemas for cancer too?

Maybe these people should read a book. Probably believes that since they were born in a hospital, they know about medicine.

I'm not a big fan of ignorant people, but I really hate ignorant people with credentials who represent themselves as medical experts.

I don't hate ignorant people necessarily, since we are all ignorant, but I do think that people who are experts and spread misinformation need to die out. Also people who can easily learn basic information, but refuse in order to not contradict their beliefs. Or meat eaters who still eat meat even after knowing the immortality of it.

[EquALLity]

According to her naturopathic doctor?
She needs to find another doctor, that's total bullshit.

I checked, because her mom is actually pretty heavy into alt-med. But no, actual doctor.

Thanks for that link, I'm showing it to her.

Is it unethical, though?

[Red]

I dunno how 'bout this
http://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/honey-is-not-unethical

[brimstoneSalad]

According to her naturopathic doctor?
She needs to find another doctor, that's total bullshit.

I checked, because her mom is actually pretty heavy into alt-med. But no, actual doctor.

She probably chose a doctor friendly to altmed. There are even anti-vax doctors, if you look hard enough.

Is it unethical, though?

I would say so, because there's no reason for it at all.
If you legitimately need something, there can be an argument for it. Even if it helps in any way at all. But honey doesn't do anything for digestion, it's pseudoscience. Alt-med itself is unethical, altmed with animal products is even worse.

It's reasonable to use bees to pollinate crops to produce healthy food, even if the bees suffer a little, there's substantial human benefit. It even makes sense to go ahead an eat something (like bread) with honey in it if there's no convenient alternative (it's probably even better to eat whole wheat bread with honey than white bread without -- the honey is not what makes it better, though, it's better in spite of the honey).
There's no credible benefit to human health from honey, and just intentionally adding straight up honey to something doesn't make sense. It's sugar. Just use corn syrup.

Vegans eating honey isn't something I'm likely to go out of my way to complain about, since it's a minor issue, but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

[EquALLity]

According to her naturopathic doctor?
She needs to find another doctor, that's total bullshit.

I checked, because her mom is actually pretty heavy into alt-med. But no, actual doctor.

She probably chose a doctor friendly to altmed. There are even anti-vax doctors, if you look hard enough.

Is it unethical, though?

I would say so, because there's no reason for it at all.
If you legitimately need something, there can be an argument for it. Even if it helps in any way at all. But honey doesn't do anything for digestion, it's pseudoscience. Alt-med itself is unethical, altmed with animal products is even worse.

It's reasonable to use bees to pollinate crops to produce healthy food, even if the bees suffer a little, there's substantial human benefit. It even makes sense to go ahead an eat something (like bread) with honey in it if there's no convenient alternative (it's probably even better to eat whole wheat bread with honey than white bread without -- the honey is not what makes it better, though, it's better in spite of the honey).
There's no credible benefit to human health from honey, and just intentionally adding straight up honey to something doesn't make sense. It's sugar. Just use corn syrup.

Vegans eating honey isn't something I'm likely to go out of my way to complain about, since it's a minor issue, but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

But what exactly makes in unethical? Is it the way the bees are treated? Does it hurt bee populations, or help them because the bees are being bred?