On childhood and carnism

[ReginaL]

Naturally, I've been thinking a lot about veganism and so forth recently. Last night, a memory from childhood popped into my head. When I was about 4 years old, we spent the weekend at the home of some relatives. It was a family reunion-type thing, but I don't remember the exact reason we were there. It could have been a wedding. Anyway, the day we arrived I was outside exploring around the property. There was a calf in a fenced area. I remember petting the calf and feeding clover flowers to it.

The next morning, the calf was gone. When I asked my grandmother where it was, she explained that the calf was being cooked. I was very upset and started crying. According to what my grandmother told me later, I refused to eat the meat. That was my natural inclination as a child. It's interesting that we are basically trained from childhood to disassociate the thought of a living, breathing animal from what's on our plates. When going vegetarian or vegan, we must retrain our thought processes and regain that same childhood revulsion/horror.

The disassociation can be very deep-rooted. If I see a dead squirrel or raccoon on the road, I practically tear up. I have to look away. So, how could I eat meat for so many years? Disassociation. You know it's an animal on your plate, but carnism causes you to deny the connection on some level. As humans, we are usually very invested in the familiar. It's an evolutionary advantage to seek out that which is familiar (safe) and ensures we don't unknowingly eat something poisonous. As humans, however, we also have the advantage of supreme adaptability. Humans can and do not only survive, but thrive, on all kinds of diets. In general, I'm not interested in the "optimal" diet because of that adaptability. Obviously eating a steady diet of Cheetos and Cokes isn't going to do us any favors, health-wise, but I think there is wide variation in what can constitute a reasonably healthy diet.

So, considerations beyond what is "healthy" take precedence for me. Although I eat a lot of vegetables and legumes, it's mainly because they taste good to me. If sauteing some zucchini in a bit of olive oil gets me to eat more zucchini, that's fine. If someone wants to add a little sugar to oatmeal and doing that helps them not eat eggs, that's great. Some salt on potatoes? Awesome. I don't eat much fruit because I don't really like fruit all that much. So, if someone tells me that in order to be a "good" vegan I need to be eating mostly raw fruit, that's not going to work for me and it's going to turn me off to their message on some level. If nothing else, I'm less likely to watch and, in turn, be inspired by, their content. I'm not saying that every vegan message needs to be generic, but rather that inclusivity works better than exclusivity when considering the movement as a whole. While eating for good health is great, stressing the health aspect and labeling certain (vegan) foods as "bad" probably doesn't help the cause much when trying to attract the greatest number of people. If the food people are eating doesn't taste good to them they're not likely to continue. Transitioning to a vegan diet is as much (maybe more) about building good replacement associations as it is about destroying the harmful ones. Making the diet fit the person rather than the other way around makes more sense to me.

[brimstoneSalad]

Thanks for sharing,

That was my natural inclination as a child. It's interesting that we are basically trained from childhood to disassociate the thought of a living, breathing animal from what's on our plates. When going vegetarian or vegan, we must retrain our thought processes and regain that same childhood revulsion/horror.

It's quite a contradiction that we're taught to love and eat animals; I don't think it's hard for a child to understand that a dog and a calf are very similar in behavior and feeling. Somehow adults disassociate them and learn to be carnists. You're right: a lot of learning is just un-learning bad ideas.

It's an evolutionary advantage to seek out that which is familiar (safe) and ensures we don't unknowingly eat something poisonous. As humans, however, we also have the advantage of supreme adaptability. Humans can and do not only survive, but thrive, on all kinds of diets. In general, I'm not interested in the "optimal" diet because of that adaptability. Obviously eating a steady diet of Cheetos and Cokes isn't going to do us any favors, health-wise, but I think there is wide variation in what can constitute a reasonably healthy diet.

Well, evolution only assured we wouldn't die until we passed the age at which we could have a few children to pass on genes. Once we hit 40, evolution is "done with us". So, as children that's true: it's easy to thrive as a young person on almost anything. But as we get older, we have to think more about the maintenance of our systems (fiber, antioxidants, avoiding artery clogging food) IF we want to maintain them.

So, considerations beyond what is "healthy" take precedence for me. Although I eat a lot of vegetables and legumes, it's mainly because they taste good to me. If sauteing some zucchini in a bit of olive oil gets me to eat more zucchini, that's fine. If someone wants to add a little sugar to oatmeal and doing that helps them not eat eggs, that's great. Some salt on potatoes? Awesome.

I think it's important to strike a balance of healthy and delicious. We must have delicious food to not put people off, but it also has to be at least nutritionally adequate.

People who eat nothing but fruit and rice are setting themselves up to become malnourished and develop health problems: that will usually just cause them to quite veganism and go back to eating a standard diet.

I don't eat much fruit because I don't really like fruit all that much. So, if someone tells me that in order to be a "good" vegan I need to be eating mostly raw fruit, that's not going to work for me and it's going to turn me off to their message on some level.

I would go beyond that to say that those people are not only putting others off, but also advocating an unhealthy diet which will make people sick. Fruit is high in sugar and low in macro and micronutrients. It has antioxidants and fiber, sure, but is short on a lot of other vitamins and minerals, and very low in protein.

I've seen the videos of people following this HCLF diet of unlimited fruit and gaining weight and getting sick. It's a fad, not based on nutritional science.

Nutritional science pretty much supports the diet you're eating now: lots of veggies and beans. More limited amount of fruit.

While eating for good health is great, stressing the health aspect and labeling certain (vegan) foods as "bad" probably doesn't help the cause much when trying to attract the greatest number of people. If the food people are eating doesn't taste good to them they're not likely to continue.

That's one of the reasons I support things like veggie burgers and soy products. A lot of these supposed health vegans distain them for high sodium content or for being "unnatural", but in the grand scheme of things salt makes things delicious, and a little processing to make something convenient and give it a nice texture and taste is good for people transitioning and maintaining a long term vegan diet. They're still far healthier than the animal meat versions

Studies on "eco atkins", a low carb vegan version with mock meats and veggies, and shown this to be a healthier diet which gives the weight loss benefits of low carb without the heath problems of animal products. Why don't these HCFL vegans accept this as a viable option, and give people a choice along the spectrum? Seems like some of them are just obsessed with being right and won't admit mistakes.

[ReginaL]

It's an evolutionary advantage to seek out that which is familiar (safe) and ensures we don't unknowingly eat something poisonous. As humans, however, we also have the advantage of supreme adaptability. Humans can and do not only survive, but thrive, on all kinds of diets. In general, I'm not interested in the "optimal" diet because of that adaptability. Obviously eating a steady diet of Cheetos and Cokes isn't going to do us any favors, health-wise, but I think there is wide variation in what can constitute a reasonably healthy diet.

Well, evolution only assured we wouldn't die until we passed the age at which we could have a few children to pass on genes. Once we hit 40, evolution is "done with us". So, as children that's true: it's easy to thrive as a young person on almost anything. But as we get older, we have to think more about the maintenance of our systems (fiber, antioxidants, avoiding artery clogging food) IF we want to maintain them.

While I think that's technically correct in that evolutionary adaptation is about preservation of species and not about individuals, I do think that some evolutionary hard-wiring stays with us as individuals. For example, there's a reason many, if not most, people prefer to sit with their backs to a wall in a public space. It's a survival mechanism; we want to be able to see potential threats, even if we don't consciously think about why we feel more comfortable that way. We maintain those survival mechanisms throughout our lives. Also, I didn't mean that we can thrive on anything, just that there is a lot more wiggle room in what is reasonably healthy than many purists are willing to admit.

So, considerations beyond what is "healthy" take precedence for me. Although I eat a lot of vegetables and legumes, it's mainly because they taste good to me. If sauteing some zucchini in a bit of olive oil gets me to eat more zucchini, that's fine. If someone wants to add a little sugar to oatmeal and doing that helps them not eat eggs, that's great. Some salt on potatoes? Awesome.

I think it's important to strike a balance of healthy and delicious. We must have delicious food to not put people off, but it also has to be at least nutritionally adequate.

I absolutely agree. For many people though, that takes quite a bit of time and education in addition to retraining the taste buds. It's especially difficult for them if they don't know how to cook or haven't been exposed to different kinds of foods. Telling them from Day 1 that they have to maintain some arbitrary standard of "perfect" health and purity isn't going to help them adapt to an ethical lifestyle for the long haul. Unless someone suffers from a life-threatening illness and must make severe changes to their diet at once, I think it's better to make a gradual change. It's more likely to be long-lasting if the changes are shown to be fairly easily attainable. So, while I think educating people on better choices is a good thing, being dogmatic is not. It may take a while before a person who never ate many vegetables comes to prefer some broccoli to a vegan chicken nugget and some may never reach that point. I think the vegan community as a whole has an obligation to educate, but not to alienate.

Seems like some of them are just obsessed with being right and won't admit mistakes.

Yes. Some of these diet gurus seem more interested in preserving their cult of personality than in actually being effective activists.

[brimstoneSalad]

Telling them from Day 1 that they have to maintain some arbitrary standard of "perfect" health and purity isn't going to help them adapt to an ethical lifestyle for the long haul.

Yes, I think that's what the evidence has shown. Slow and steady wins the race... or, makes a long term vegan.

It may take a while before a person who never ate many vegetables comes to prefer some broccoli to a vegan chicken nugget and some may never reach that point.

Yes, and that's OK Vegan nuggets are pretty healthy, after all, since they're made from bean proteins, and very low in saturated fat. They even have some fiber in them.

[ReginaL]

Good thing on the vegan chicken. I may or may not have an inordinate fondness for the Gardein Chipotle Lime tenders.

[brimstoneSalad]

Good thing on the vegan chicken. I may or may not have an inordinate fondness for the Gardein Chipotle Lime tenders.

Mock meat and roasted broccoli is my idea of a great meal. I haven't tried the Chipotle Lime Gardein, that sounds amazing.