Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

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Oohsoscary
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Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by Oohsoscary »

:o

So I've met 1 vegan irl
He was talking about how if he can't pronounce an ingredient he also wouldn't eat it because he only eats "natural" or something.

I assume he was talking about the ingredients that are listed as chemicals (like the famous taurine) these are also ingredients that the meat eating "vegan police" like to point out in order to try to prove that I'm not really vegan, because eating taurine justifies paying for factory farms lol.

So my issue is that while generally the ingredients that can come from animals that are listed in ingredients, it is not listed (because it is not required by law) whether or not an ingredient came from an animal source or a plant source.

My current feelings are that if we eat chemicals with unlisted origins it is most likely from plant sources since that is generally the cheaper option and if it is not then it would become the cheaper option once the consumption of animals is not so great we do not have to find creative ways to use what is leftover from the factory farms.

I am unsure of my conclusion though and am willing to change my opinion with proper evidence

So should I eat unpronounceable chemicals with mysterious origins?

Do you?
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EquALLity
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by EquALLity »

I agree with you, we shouldn't worry about those ingredients.

The (potential) harm done is minuscule, and I think it causes more harm to avoid those types of ingredients. I think it puts off non-vegans by making them think veganism is extremely difficult, and thereby causes less people to go vegan, which is way more harmful than eating methylwhatever.

However, I would probably avoid taurine, because animal fat seems pretty gross to me. But that's something we know is an animal product, while we usually don't know when it comes to similar ingredients, and I don't think we should avoid ingredients that MAY not be vegan.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by brimstoneSalad »

You're right that these things are generally made from plants. Even in some odd case that they are not, they are made from nearly throw away grade byproducts, and don't contribute meaningfully to animal suffering.

As EquALLity said, it makes veganism seem obsessive.
PETA also has an article on this:
http://www.peta.org/living/food/making-transition-vegetarian/ideas-vegetarian-living/tiny-amount-animal-products-food/
EquALLity wrote:However, I would probably avoid taurine, because animal fat seems pretty gross to me. But that's something we know is an animal product, while we usually don't know when it comes to similar ingredients, and I don't think we should avoid ingredients that MAY not be vegan.
You're probably thinking of something else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine#Synthesis

Taurine is not an animal product, and can not be synthesized from anything I can easily identify as a potential animal product.
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EquALLity
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by EquALLity »

brimstoneSalad wrote:You're right that these things are generally made from plants. Even in some odd case that they are not, they are made from nearly throw away grade byproducts, and don't contribute meaningfully to animal suffering.

As EquALLity said, it makes veganism seem obsessive.
PETA also has an article on this:
http://www.peta.org/living/food/making-transition-vegetarian/ideas-vegetarian-living/tiny-amount-animal-products-food/
EquALLity wrote:However, I would probably avoid taurine, because animal fat seems pretty gross to me. But that's something we know is an animal product, while we usually don't know when it comes to similar ingredients, and I don't think we should avoid ingredients that MAY not be vegan.
You're probably thinking of something else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine#Synthesis

Taurine is not an animal product, and can not be synthesized from anything I can easily identify as a potential animal product.
I'm pretty sure that's about synthetic taurine. See the top of the Wikipedia page:
Taurine (/ˈtɔːriːn/), or 2-aminoethanesulfonic acid, is an organic compound that is widely distributed in animal tissues.[1] It is a major constituent of bile and can be found in the large intestine, and accounts for up to 0.1% of total human body weight.
Also veganhealth.org:
Taurine is not an essential nutrient; in other words, the human body makes its own taurine. Cats, on the other hand, are not able to make taurine and it must be supplied by the diet in order to keep their retinas healthy.

Taurine is made by the body from cysteine, which is a protein amino acid. If you eat the recommended amounts of protein, you should be getting enough cysteine to provide enough taurine.

Taurine is not found in plant foods. Non-vegetarians typically eat 40 - 70 mg of taurine per day (1). Vegans have been shown to have lower blood levels of taurine (3). It is not known whether this compromises health in any way, but very few vegans supplement with taurine, including healthy teenagers who have been vegan from birth.
PETA:
But navigating the ingredient lists on cans of liquid energy can be tricky (taurine, for example, comes from animals, but there is a synthetic version that many companies use).
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by brimstoneSalad »

EquALLity wrote: I'm pretty sure that's about synthetic taurine.
Which is the Taurine used in supplements and energy drinks and basically anything you would buy that lists taurine in the ingredients.

I would be dumbfounded if you could find evidence that Taurine is commercially extracted from animal products for use in any of these products. The only case where it may be is in some specialty supplement, which advertises this fact (that it's not "synthetic"), although try as I may I can not find one.
EquALLity wrote:PETA:
But navigating the ingredient lists on cans of liquid energy can be tricky (taurine, for example, comes from animals, but there is a synthetic version that many companies use).
I highly doubt that any company is using animal based taurine. It's like the suggestion that glucose might come from animals because it's "blood sugar". No.
PETA is incorrect. The frequently get their facts wrong on these things. Remember, it's a big organization with many people with different views who publish information under their name. Sometimes good, sometimes terrible.

http://blog.fooducate.com/2012/07/12/th ... s-to-know/
7. The urban myth that taurine is derived from bull sperm is false. Taurine is present in bull sperm, but that is not the source of taurine in your beverages. Taurine, like many other additives in today’s foods, is synthesized in a lab.

8. Taurine Sourcing. No animals are harmed to bring you taurine. These days, it is manufactured by chemical synthesis in food ingredient processing plants. In China alone there are 40 taurine manufacturers!

http://www.whathealth.com/taurine/overview.html
How is taurine made?
Taurine can be produced by the body (through biosynthesis) or produced as a man made chemical (through chemical synthesis).

Taurine Biosynthesis
Within the body, taurine is synthesized within the pancreas through a pathway in which cysteine is oxidized to create cysteine sulphuric acid. Positioned behind the stomach, the pancreas is a gland which manufactures hormones and digestive enzymes.

In adult males, taurine is also produced within the testes (testicles).

Taurine Chemical Synthesis
Taurine can also be chemically synthesized (created artificially and not by the body). Synthesized taurine is used in commercial products. Taurine is created for both human medical/pharmaceutical purposes and for use within the pet food industry.

Taurine is produced as an additive to cat food. Cats are not able to synthesize the taurine compound and acquire it from their diet.

Commercially produced taurine is usually derived from isethionic acid.

Taurine can also be derived through the reaction of sulfurous acid and aziridine [16].
http://www.news-medical.net/health/Taur ... ction.aspx
Chemical Synthesis
There are two main approached that are commonly used to obtain taurine via chemical reactions.

The first involves a reaction between ethylene oxide and sodium bisulfite to form isethionic acid, which is then used to obtain the synthetic form of taurine. The second uses the chemical reaction between aziridine and sulfurous acid to obtain taurine in a single reactive process.

Commercial Production
The consumer demand for products containing taurine continues to increase, leading to a need for higher production levels.

Although taurine does occur naturally in food sources, on a commercial scale it is economically beneficial to synthesize the amino acid derivative with chemical reactions, rather than extract it from natural sources. For this reason, the vast majority of taurine used in supplements and other food products is chemically synthesized.
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EquALLity
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by EquALLity »

^Ah, I see. So if something is listed as just 'taurine', is it probably synthetic?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by brimstoneSalad »

EquALLity wrote:^Ah, I see. So if something is listed as just 'taurine', is it probably synthetic?
Yes. And "probably" in the sense of astronomical odds in its favor of being synthetic. Like I said, I couldn't even find a supplement of animal derived taurine by searching. I can't exactly provide evidence that it doesn't exist, since somebody somewhere may be crazy enough, but I don't think it exists.

So, "probably" in that context is in the sense like that if it lists water as an ingredient it "probably" wasn't extracted from a animal tank-girl style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS2TXAjypFE
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EquALLity
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by EquALLity »

^Ah, I see.

I've never heard of Tank Girl, but now I might just have to watch it. :lol:
IMDB wrote:Based on the British cult comic-strip, our tank-riding anti-heroine fights a mega-corporation, which controls the world's water supply.
Oooh...
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Re: Ingredients that MAY not be vegan

Post by Cinereous »

Not being able to pronounce something could also be relative to never being exposed to that word or similar sounding words. If you have learned any shred of organic chemistry, most compounds become easier to pronounce. Many are isolated from plants/synthetic or use common terms. Synthetic minerals are often preferable when isolation methods are more intensive based on money, time, and so on.

No one seems afraid of B12 (assuming plant-sourced), for example, but it's true name is cobalamin. Chemical-based names based on the structure of something arise when colloquial terms are non-existent. Caffeine would be 1,3,7-trimethylxanthine or 1,3,7-Trimethylpurine-2,6-dione (among other terms based on classification), so everything can sound 'scary' in this fashion!

In this case, search for what the ingredient is and what it does. From there you can determine whether or not you believe it is harmful (but preferably source a few reputable, science-based sources). Many additives are more natural than they seem, although I generally am more impressed by processed foods with more simple ingredients than not (especially if it actually tastes good).

Glad to see you aren't buying into this! We don't want our eating habits to look extreme, however many omnivores use the "don't eat if you can't pronounce it" philosophy. For example, I would NEVER know how to pronounce 'colonel' if I had never been taught how to say it. ;)

Cheers!
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