Question for all vegans!

[EquALLity]

I was at my grandparents house watching YouTube at like one in the morning, and I found JaclynGlenn's older video 'How I Became a Vegetarian'. In that video, she talked about the documentaries 'Meet Your Meat' and 'Earthlings'.

I watched 'Meet Your Meat' right after on YT, and it's basically a video that reveals what goes on in the animal agricultural industry (all the abuse etc.).
Have you seen it?: http://www.peta.org/videos/meet-your-meat/

I watched Earthlings after when I already wanted to go vegan, and it went more in depth with animal agriculture, but also discussed other forms of animal cruelty (leather and fur etc.).

Something that's interesting to me is that, immediately after watching 'Meet Your Meat' and I decided I wanted to go vegan, I seriously questioned the morality of abortion.
It was like something went off in my head, and I realized that person-hood isn't what matters (I'm still pro-choice, but it's a more rational position now).

When I reflect on this all, it seems like my decision to go vegan was rash, but I really don't think it was. It was just like, "Oh, animals are abused to make animal products, so I'm not going to have them anymore." Maybe it made more sense because I already knew what veganism was from elementary school, so it didn't seem like this crazy thing that I thought it was impossible.
Originally though, I did think it would be challenging, but mostly because of my parents, not because veganism seemed drastic alone.

[Lauradf36]

Ok. I imagine everyone is rubbing their hands waiting to tear these arguments to pieces. But... here goes.

And that is just dealing with the moral side regarding the animals.
Factory farming is the worst when it comes to environmental damage, leading in deforestation, greenhouse gas emissions and waste.

I have read articles saying that it's difficult to blame the consumption of meat for something as large-scale as climate change. There are many other factors which contribute to climate change, and if veganism was based purely on environmental reasons you would have to control all of them... which would be slightly impossible,

In regards to the documentary cowspiracy. It uses pretty skewed statistics, and makes no reference to the Union of Concerned Scientists 2011 report that states: "Climate-friendly beef production practices reduce methane and nitrous oxide emissions while increasing carbon sequestration." So I personally find it difficult to trust :/

And then, of course, there is the health part of it. Which is pretty extensive. I can talk about that if you're interested in health reasons too.

Hmm. So my main argument against those ideas is *brace yourself to get angry* there is no proven health benefits from veganism apart from the normal benefits of abstaining from processed foods. Which are of course wonderful and the diet has helped implement that for tons of people! But, it's not the only way to be healthy .

The thing is, humans been eating these foods for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years. Most chronic diseases like obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease and many forms of cancer are relatively new. Blaming new health problems on these old foods simply doesn’t make sense!
Two massive studies have looked into this recently, one from Harvard with 1,218,380 individuals, and another European study with 448,568 individuals. They found no link between unprocessed red meat and heart disease, diabetes or the risk of death. The effect was only seen for processed meat.

That said, this is not just about killing animals. The meat and dairy industry keeps animals in horrible conditions.
You have to keep breeding billions upon billions of animals to sustain the demand, and the only way to do so and have a very profitable business is by caging them in spaces that are way too small for them and treating them like property.
This leads to all sorts of gruesome treatments. You can check documentaries like Earthlings if you're interested.

It does make me super sad that this is a reality. I won't and can't deny that many animals go through suffering to produce the products that many of us consume. That's the part that makes me question why I'm not vegan at times.
But - over 3/4 of cattle in the US are already on grass, and majority of the world's cattle are also already on grass. And I don't eat meat unless it ethically & sustainably sourced and only eat free range eggs.

Which you've probably heard 1 million times before and are now laughing at my naivety but there we go. Hope this provides some ah... entertainment if anything.

[Jebus]

I have read articles saying that it's difficult to blame the consumption of meat for something as large-scale as climate change.

and I've read articles saying there is no such thing as climate change.

There are many other factors which contribute to climate change, and if veganism was based purely on environmental reasons you would have to control all of them... which would be slightly impossible,

Why would you have to control all of them? Why not focus on those that do the most damage and that are the easiest to control?

In regards to the documentary cowspiracy. It uses pretty skewed statistics, and makes no reference to the Union of Concerned Scientists 2011 report that states: "Climate-friendly beef production practices reduce methane and nitrous oxide emissions while increasing carbon sequestration." So I personally find it difficult to trust

I can tell that you've done a couple of speedy Google searches but you need to ask yourself who wrote the articles and why and then look at the research that backs up the claims. Many of our forumites agree that there are unnecessary exaggerations in Cowspiracy although the central message is true.

The Concerned Scientists report didn't conclude that beef production doesn't harm the environment. On the contrary, it put out recommendations on how to change the industry to make it less harmful.

there is no proven health benefits from veganism apart from the normal benefits of abstaining from processed foods.

Processed foods can be either vegan or not vegan so this is irrelevant. I would recommend that you watch "Forks over Knives" for a basic understanding of why non-vegan foods are harmful. Once you dig deeper into the research you will notice that the evidence for this is overwhelming.

humans been eating these foods for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years.

So what? Were these people knowledgeable in nutrition? Did these people live long healthy lives?

Most chronic diseases like obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease and many forms of cancer are relatively new. Blaming new health problems on these old foods simply doesn’t make sense!

It actually makes lots of sense. These diseases have a strong positive correlation with animal protein consumption. Countries with higher meat and dairy consumption also have higher rates of the illnesses you mention.

Two massive studies have looked into this recently, one from Harvard with 1,218,380 individuals, and another European study with 448,568 individuals. They found no link between unprocessed red meat and heart disease, diabetes or the risk of death. The effect was only seen for processed meat.

Please provide a link.

The meat and dairy industry keeps animals in horrible conditions.

You recognise this and you still support the industry. Why?

I don't eat meat unless it ethically & sustainably sourced.

How is it possible to ethically kill an animal who desperately wants to live, and whose friends and family desperately wants him/her to live. Don't fool yourself into believing that grass fed beef is somehow more ethical. Yes, the animals suffer less but it is often even more harmful to the environment than factory farming.

[Lauradf36]

Why would you have to control all of them? Why not focus on those that do the most damage and that are the easiest to control?

From what I observe, most vegan ethics follow logical consistency theory - essentially, if you are against harming humans, you have to be against the harming of all sentient beings to be consistent.

So, following that ethical system - if you believe harming the environment is wrong, you have to be against all ways of harming the environment, to be consistent. That's my reasoning any how.

Many of our forumites agree that there are unnecessary exaggerations in Cowspiracy although the central message is true.

now that gives me hope!

Processed foods can be either vegan or not vegan so this is irrelevant.

Exactly. My point is, you don't have to be vegan to be healthy!

So what? Were these people knowledgeable in nutrition? Did these people live long healthy lives?

Yep! Actually, someone in the Bible lived past 1000 so that's pretty old in my books. (pun vaguely intended)

Please provide a link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2885952/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3599112/

These research papers suggest the link is only between processed meats and cancer, not unprocessed meat/the makeup of meat altogether.

How is it possible to ethically kill an animal who desperately wants to live, and whose friends and family desperately wants him/her to live. Don't fool yourself into believing that grass fed beef is somehow more ethical. Yes, the animals suffer less but it is often even more harmful to the environment than factory farming.

I believe it is ethical to eat animals and use their produce. I don't believe it is necessary for them to suffer extensively during this process, and avoid as much as possible supporting that. That's pretty much the TL;DR of all my posts haha.

[Jebus]

if you are against harming humans, you have to be against the harming of all sentient beings to be consistent.

Yes, I agree with that but still don't understand your original point which suggested that either you do everything you can to help the environment or you do nothing at all.

if you believe harming the environment is wrong, you have to be against all ways of harming the environment, to be consistent.

I am against all of them so I don't see your point. Whenever possible I ride my bicycle rather than take the car. However, my current life style makes it very difficult for me to avoid flying. I could stop flying but then I would have to quit my current job which in turn would make me less effective in promoting veganism and reducing suffering. However, reducing or eliminating consumption of animals is never impossible and has a much higher environmental impact than avoiding a couple of flights per year.

Processed foods can be either vegan or not vegan so this is irrelevant.

Exactly. My point is, you don't have to be vegan to be healthy!

But in that case you are assuming that processed foods is the only nutritional aspect. There are many more.

So what? Were these people knowledgeable in nutrition? Did these people live long healthy lives?

someone in the Bible lived past 1000 so that's pretty old in my books.

You wrote earlier that humans have eaten meat for millions of years. How is that possible if the bible is true?

These research papers suggest the link is only between processed meats and cancer, not unprocessed meat/the makeup of meat altogether.

I only had time to look at the first study listed. It only shows that processed meats are worse than unprocessed meats as there was no "no meat" control group. The researchers themselves wrote: "it should be emphasized that our findings did not demonstrate lower risk of CHD, diabetes mellitus, or stroke with either unprocessed red or processed meat consumption. Thus, individuals and policy makers should focus on increasing consumption of the foods, with strong evidence for cardiometabolic benefits, including fruits, vegetables, fish, nuts, whole grains, and vegetable oils."

I believe it is ethical to eat animals and use their produce. I don't believe it is necessary for them to suffer extensively during this process, and avoid as much as possible supporting that.

"Avoiding as much as possible". Think about that for a moment. Wouldn't ceasing to eat them altogether better fit that statement.

You are basically saying that you are fine with suffering but only to a certain degree. However, unless you've spent a significant amount of time on a farm and slaughter house how can you know exactly what the amount of suffering is. You are just guessing. This is not something anyone should be doing when the suffering of sentient beings are at stake.

[Lauradf36]

This is all I've got to respond to these ones...

I could stop flying but then I would have to quit my current job which in turn would make me less effective in promoting veganism and reducing suffering.

As I say - to defend veganism from a purely environmental point of view (though of course this is not the only point of view), you'd have to be pretty consistent on that side. Which no one can expect really.

You wrote earlier that humans have eaten meat for millions of years. How is that possible if the bible is true?

Shoulda checked that one more thoroughly. I mean, there are certainly Christian evolutionists who believe both are true - I am not one of them. I retract that statement your honour.

You are basically saying that you are fine with suffering but only to a certain degree. However, unless you've spent a significant amount of time on a farm and slaughter house how can you know exactly what the amount of suffering is. You are just guessing. This is not something anyone should be doing when the suffering of sentient beings are at stake.

I guess my belief is that these animals are given to us to eat & that is part of their role in the ecosystem... suffering isn't part of that role. If you get meh? That's all I've got!

And really, my belief that animals are not the same as humans pretty much shapes all of this. Just something we will have to agree to disagree on

[Jebus]

As I say - to defend veganism from a purely environmental point of view (though of course this is not the only point of view), you'd have to be pretty consistent on that side. Which no one can expect really.

Why not just do the best you can? What's wrong with that?

my belief is that these animals are given to us to eat & that is part of their role in the ecosystem

Why didn't God give us sharper teeth, claws, and intestines better suited to digest meat?
If God is a good God, why did he make animals capable of feeling pain?

my belief that animals are not the same as humans pretty much shapes all of this. Just something we will have to agree to disagree on

Sure, we can agree to disagree if you explain your last point: What is so different between an animal and a human? Why did God make humans and chimps more genetically similar than a rat compared to a mouse?

[Minos]

I have read articles saying that it's difficult to blame the consumption of meat for something as large-scale as climate change. There are many other factors which contribute to climate change, and if veganism was based purely on environmental reasons you would have to control all of them... which would be slightly impossible

I agree, that there are many other factors a it would be impossible to control all of them. Factory farming have huge impact on environment so by not eating meat I deal with the (for me) biggest environmental problem. With this one checked out, I'm considering smaller problems such as palm oil, public transport vs. own car, shorter showers etc. It's never ending process and there is always room for improvement.

What are you saying seems to me, as if one is vegan base on purely environmental reasons and can't control every aspect of his impact on environment, then his reason to be vegan is invalid. Please correct me, if I interpret you wrong.

The thing is, humans been eating these foods for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years. Most chronic diseases like obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease and many forms of cancer are relatively new. Blaming new health problems on these old foods simply doesn’t make sense!

Rise of these diseases is correlated to amounts of animal products consumed. Plant based foods have positive effect and animal based foods have negative effect. And recently we tipped the scales in favor of negative effects. For this I would recommend The China Study.

Which you've probably heard 1 million times before and are now laughing at my naivety but there we go. Hope this provides some ah... entertainment if anything.

This is discussion forum, so let's discuss, no hard feelings :]

[Lauradf36]

Why not just do the best you can? What's wrong with that?

Dw, I'm not saying anything's wrong with it! If course we can do good things for the environment! But you can't expect everyone else to follow it if there are still ways you may be intentionally or unintentionally harming the environment - they may have different ways of doing good for the world.

Why didn't God give us sharper teeth, claws, and intestines better suited to digest meat?

If you're saying God didn't want us to eat meat... whelp, Genesis 9:3-4 says otherwise

If God is a good God, why did he make animals capable of feeling pain?

This seems like quite a different/unrelated question? If you want me to answer why God allows suffering, I can do a full response on that... to the best of my ability. I wish I was the Bible - unfortunately none of us are perfect.

What is so different between an animal and a human? Why did God make humans and chimps more genetically similar than a rat compared to a mouse?

See, I'm not really making a biological distinction here. I'm making an intellectual & emotional distinction persay? Not just from a Christian but a philosophical perspective:
a) Human beings have an inherent spiritual and religious nature.
b) Sophisticated Communication
c) Time and Truth Consciousness.

Anyway. Glad we can agree to disagree, but there is my defence!

[Lauradf36]

What are you saying seems to me, as if one is vegan base on purely environmental reasons and can't control every aspect of his impact on environment, then his reason to be vegan is invalid. Please correct me, if I interpret you wrong.

That is pretty much what I am saying, yes! I definitely think there are strong arguments for being vegan, just reading all these posts. I don't think environment is one of them (personally).

Thank you for your respectful response!