Abolitionists

[Jaywalker]

I’m somewhat active in local vegan discussion groups on facebook. The most active group as far as I know is moderated by Francione fans. They’re not the most numerous (I don’t think) but the most vocal group in my city. I sometimes post there, but I usually refrain from posting things about ethics, because they have a policy of banning contrary opinions on that. I’ve been in the group for a few years now and it seems as they’ve grown larger they’ve become increasingly dismissive of anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

They do street activism, set up booths and hand out leaflets. After learning about the effectiveness of leafleting, I asked if I could join them to gain some experience but since I buy things with trace allergen warnings and wear old wool clothes, they didn’t consider me vegan and refused. That’s alright, since I can do it with others or by myself, but their attitude is making me concerned. They get many people interested in veganism, but how many are they turning away? Many of their followers also become complacent and stop caring about things like palm oil. I think they still probably have a net positive effect, but I’m starting to understand why you don’t like Francione.

So what do you think, should they be confronted or ignored?

[brimstoneSalad]

Unfortunately, that tends to be how it is. Deontologists are loud, and very sure of themselves. Growing more extreme and insular over time is also pretty typical -- of any group, really, without a strong effort to focus on discussion.

They do street activism, set up booths and hand out leaflets. After learning about the effectiveness of leafleting, I asked if I could join them to gain some experience but since I buy things with trace allergen warnings and wear old wool clothes, they didn’t consider me vegan and refused.

That's stupid of them to decline help. What I think you will usually see of groups like these is that, like a black hole shedding Hawking radiation, they will evaporate. How many active members are there?

I think they still probably have a net positive effect, but I’m starting to understand why you don’t like Francione.

Given as much effort as they put in, taken alone and in isolation they may have a slight positive effect vs. doing nothing at all.
The problem is they have much less positive effect than more rational vegan outreach, and their existence and promotion of their ideas actually threatens more rational vegan outreach. It's an issue of opportunity cost, and because of that, when you examine the whole picture, they probably have a net negative effect.

So what do you think, should they be confronted or ignored?

It depends on if you want to stir up trouble or not. I'm going to take a guess and say you don't. These are dogmatists; they probably can't be reasoned with, particularly as a group (good old group-think).

If you could get them alone, you could try to use street epistemology on them, but they likely won't let that happen and will protect their own against your efforts to reason with them.

You're probably better off focusing on your own stuff. Make a web comic: that'll do a lot more good with your time, and hone your skill.

[DarlBundren]

If you could get them alone, you could try to use street epistemology on them, but they likely won't let that happen and will protect their own against your efforts to reason with them.

I don't know much about street epistemology, but if I'm not mistaken it is a term generally used in regard to the act of making people question their religious position. I'm not really interested in that, but I'd like to know how do you see street epistemology applied to veganism.

[brimstoneSalad]

[...] I'd like to know how do you see street epistemology applied to veganism.

It can be used to question any deeply held irrational belief. Deontology qualifies pretty easily... mainly a bunch of "why do you believe that?" kind of questions, and asking about contradictions in a way that gets them to think.

[Jaywalker]

That's stupid of them to decline help. What I think you will usually see of groups like these is that, like a black hole shedding Hawking radiation, they will evaporate. How many active members are there?

They have about a dozen "inner" members I think, the facebook group itself has thousands of members, it's pretty active. Lots of people get pissed and leave because of their approach, but it's still going pretty strong. I'll keep observing.

Given as much effort as they put in, taken alone and in isolation they may have a slight positive effect vs. doing nothing at all.
The problem is they have much less positive effect than more rational vegan outreach, and their existence and promotion of their ideas actually threatens more rational vegan outreach. It's an issue of opportunity cost, and because of that, when you examine the whole picture, they probably have a net negative effect.

Good point.

It depends on if you want to stir up trouble or not. I'm going to take a guess and say you don't. These are dogmatists; they probably can't be reasoned with, particularly as a group (good old group-think).

That's how I felt too, I don't really enjoy pointless arguments... I'm going to start working on the webcomic once I'm finished with another side project. I've read a few and I have some ideas of my own, I'll share them soon.