I know from experience = I don't have to listen

[Allison-vega]

I recently spoke to someone who is a bee keeper. He kept insisting that he takes good care of his bees and he understands the whole process therefor I know nothing. I also hear this from people who slaughter and kill animals, or people who hunt. Somehow because they are involved in the process, and have convinced themselves they took good care, it makes them authorities on animal rights. They act as if vegans are fanatics who just whine and know nothing about how, "IT'S REALLY DONE". To me it's like a person who doesn't have kids pointing out child abuse being dismissed and because, "You're not a parent". Therefor you don't understand. This is insanity. This is the most selfish anthropocentric attitudes. Also I dated a guy who raised bees. I do know the process from seeing first hand. How do you get through to someone who believe themselves superior to truth just because they raise animals?

[brimstoneSalad]

These will often be people you won't be able to reach. You're often dealing with faith. But going with a consequential argument and focusing on things they DON'T "know from experience" may help.

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

I recently spoke to someone who is a bee keeper. He kept insisting that he takes good care of his bees and he understands the whole process therefor I know nothing.

To be honest, you don't. You have absolutely no idea the conditions the bee-keeper keeps his bees, and just assuming that he is abusive because "Use = abuse" is just arrogant. I know people who keep backyard hens, the hens are happy and doing fairly well, but I am sure if these people talked to you, you would just automatically assume that they abuse their hens.

I also hear this from people who slaughter and kill animals, or people who hunt. Somehow because they are involved in the process, and have convinced themselves they took good care, it makes them authorities on animal rights.

I hear about being against oppression by white supremacists and the like, in fact, Hitler believed the Jews were oppressive and were out to take away civil rights of the whites and to rule over them. Just because bad people make an argument doesn't mean that said argument is wrong. That's an association fallacy.

They act as if vegans are fanatics who just whine and know nothing about how, "IT'S REALLY DONE". To me it's like a person who doesn't have kids pointing out child abuse being dismissed and because, "You're not a parent".

Many Vegans DO think they know how every instance of animal rearing is accomplished, and that is a sweeping generalization, and that is not OK to make. SOME beekeepers abuse their bees, therefore ALL beekeepers do? That's like saying that SOME Animal Rights Activists set fire to animal testing labs, therefore ALL ARA's are arsonists.

A more appropriate comparison is like YOU telling a random parent that they must be abusing their child because you know many parents who abuse their children. You can't claim to know how that child, or those bees, in particular, are raised. To claim that you know better than the person who spends all day every day doing something is arrogant and outright discriminatory.

This is the most selfish anthropocentric attitudes. Also I dated a guy who raised bees. I do know the process from seeing first hand. How do you get through to someone who believe themselves superior to truth just because they raise animals?

You have the experiences of 1. That's Ancedotal Evidence at best, and would contribute to hearsay in a court of law, if not pure and outright libel against the person who you are calling an animal abuser without evidence of animal abuse.

They ARE superior to the subjective unproven accusations that you are throwing in your fragile and futile attempts at trying to claim that all use = abuse, and like I said before, that's akin to libel and slander. THEY know how they threat their bees, and you don't.

Get off your high horse for just a minute

[brimstoneSalad]

I took it to be her talking about claims people make to have special and essentially supernatural insight into the subjective experience of the animals.

A hunter can go on about how his or her kill experiences no pain or fear, but not being in that animal's mind, these people don't really know.
Farmers can go on about animals being "mindless" or happy, but that is just their biased perception; without experimentation they can't make these claims.

The more important point is to avoid the specific empirical cases, of which you will probably never convince people their assumptions may be incorrect.

[Allison-vega]

These will often be people you won't be able to reach. You're often dealing with faith. But going with a consequential argument and focusing on things they DON'T "know from experience" may help.

That's a very good idea. I'll give that a try.

[Allison-vega]

@ThatNerdyScienceGirl

I am not above criticism and I am open to changing my views even if I don't fully agree with another. I also recognize some of my views seem outrageous to you and I understand how they would seem that way. You want to label me and vegans like me as self righteous or dogmatic but I have not pushed my beliefs on you. In your post about freegans, you seemed annoyed or confused and I wanted to help you understand. Yet I have not told you to give up your way of life. I have not scolded or scoffed at you either. If anything I have empathized with your point of view. That said if you're not going to take the time and understand those vegans, and me, I respectfully ask you not to dismiss us as self righteous or dogmatic.

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

@ThatNerdyScienceGirl

I am not above criticism and I am open to changing my views even if I don't fully agree with another. I also recognize some of my views seem outrageous to you and I understand how they would seem that way. You want to label me and vegans like me as self righteous or dogmatic but I have not pushed my beliefs on you. In your post about freegans, you seemed annoyed or confused and I wanted to help you understand. Yet I have not told you to give up your way of life. I have not scolded or scoffed at you either. If anything I have empathized with your point of view. That said if you're not going to take the time and understand those vegans, and me, I respectfully ask you not to dismiss us as self righteous or dogmatic.

You know I'm a Vegan, right?