A discussion on TFES forum

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teo123
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A discussion on TFES forum

Post by teo123 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:41 am

Hi, there. Could you please join me on the thread I made on TFES (The Flat Earth Society) forum about veganism:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/foru ... sCfgum0JEc
My nickname there is FlatEarthDenial. Yes, I do honestly believe that the Earth is flat, and if you want to debate with me about it, please, open a new topic on that forum.
Here I want to discuss about how to discuss veganism on such forums (because I am apparently the only vegan on that forum and I am very bad at debating).

Please help! We want more people to be talked into veganism!

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EquALLity
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Post by EquALLity » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:30 pm

I don't think it'd be beneficial to veganism if people who believe the Earth is flat went vegan, since it's a pseudoscience, and the vegan movement unfortunately already reeks of that in certain aspects.

Why do you think the Earth is flat?
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

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ThinkAboutThis
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Post by ThinkAboutThis » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:40 pm

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=64627.0#.VsD0KbR96Uk

Cirion Spellbinder
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Post by Cirion Spellbinder » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:12 pm

teo123 wrote:Yes, I do honestly believe that the Earth is flat, and if you want to debate with me about it, please, open a new topic on that forum.
Why do you think the Earth is flat?

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:49 am

As shown by this thread, there are a lot of very active (high post count) members who are not Flat-Earthers there, who are there to discuss.
Linking back here may draw in some new users, since it's a surprisingly active forum. Could be worth it.

I like that TFES exists, because it's a very good example of people believing pseudoscience and favoring ad hoc hypotheses over science -- it shows that if somebody is committed enough to rejecting reality, he or she will find creative ways to do so, and you can never keep up with all of the assertions the person will make.

I don't really care what shape the Earth is, but Flat-Earthers themselves are conspiracy theorists who reject scientific evidence in favor of ad hoc hypotheses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesis
Because of this, attempting to reason with them will usually be futile (as the OP will soon learn). They will believe anything they want, and are not likely to be reasoned with in any capacity -- certainly not with logic or scientific evidence.

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ThinkAboutThis
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Post by ThinkAboutThis » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:54 am

Although the responses on that thread obviously do not represent TFES forum as a whole, it was still ridiculous enough for me to assume that my time would be much better spent elsewhere. Having said that, I suppose that since they've been coaxed so easily into accepting a conspiracists position, discussing the compelling arguments in favour of veganism may also have the same effect.

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Post by teo123 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:11 am

Oh, come on! Can't you at least try? Why don't we, the flat earthers, deserve to enjoy the health benefits of a vegan diet? Also, remember, an average meat-eater eats 5000 animals during his or her lifetime. So, if you convince a 50-year-old to go vegan for the rest of his or her life, you will still save 1500 animal lives!
I am not asking you to support flat earthism, I am asking you to support veganism. You can explicitly state that you are a round earther. And most of the people in that debate are round earthers.
And the Flat Earth Theory doesn't assume that there is a big conspiracy, but that only a few people are involved. Just like there must have been a conspiracy claiming that Jesus rose from the dead. OK, if you care, I tried to explain my reasons for believing that the Earth is flat in this post:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/foru ... msg1756140
Yes, I was a bit rude and wordy, but that's because a person I was responding to called me (and all the Flat Earthers) morons. Please, take no offense. But, again, if you want to debate about the Flat Earth Theory, make a new thread on The Flat Earth Society forum. And make sure that Round Earth Theory doesn't suffer from the same problem you will complain about. :-)

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Post by RanOverByATrain » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:24 am

EquALLity wrote:I don't think it'd be beneficial to veganism if people who believe the Earth is flat went vegan, since it's a pseudoscience, and the vegan movement unfortunately already reeks of that in certain aspects.
There are round earthers there. Besides, even if there are vegans who believe in the earth being flat or anything else odd, that doesn't mean it will look like we all do. It's illogical to assume all people in any group believe in the same things. Anyone who would think that way wouldn't listen to logic anyway.

There are atheists who believe in soulmates, ghosts, fate, aliens, all sorts of things. Not that any of those are bad or odd, just that that doesn't mean we all do. I'm sure there have also been atheists who have killed people too.

I have been considering joining since I saw the thread since it seems no one else is. I'm not sure yet. The people there are presenting arguments that are easily refutable and it's annoying me. They seem like they wouldn't listen, but I'm trying to stay up all night tonight to get back on schedule anyway.

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:25 am

RanOverByATrain wrote: It's illogical to assume all people in any group believe in the same things. Anyone who would think that way wouldn't listen to logic anyway.
Unfortunately, persuasion is often less about logic than about perception. Vegans have to seem normal enough so that people are willing to consider becoming one. People won't pursue anything -- morality or health -- if there's a threat of social ostracization.

The point that there are many normal people there too is more important. Seems like most of the active members are not in denial of the sciences of geophysics and astronomy.
RanOverByATrain wrote:There are atheists who believe in soulmates, ghosts, fate, aliens, all sorts of things.
Yes, but those are mostly considered slightly more normal things (assuming you don't believe you've been abducted). Flat Earth is WAY out there in la-la land.

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:18 am

teo123 wrote:Why don't we, the flat earthers, deserve to enjoy the health benefits of a vegan diet?
We do a lot more good by convincing others to go vegan than by being vegan, but one Flat-Earther being vegan, and sharing the fact that he or she also believes in a flat earth, will convince people NOT to go vegan, because they're likely to decide that (based on flawed inductive logic, but no less convincing to them) all vegans are insane.

If you care about the animals -- even if you believe the Earth is flat -- you should keep your flat-earth beliefs to yourself and just act normal so people will be more likely to see vegans as reasonable and not be scared away by you representing us as lunatics.
teo123 wrote:I am not asking you to support flat earthism, I am asking you to support veganism.
Supporting Flat Earthers going vegan would possibly be harmful to veganism. Just like supporting somebody like Hitler going vegan -- people would say "wow, Hitler was really evil and he was vegan, veganism must be evil!". Except, instead "I knew a vegan once, he thought the Earth was flat, vegans are crazy!"

Again, this is flawed reasoning on the part of the carnists, but it's psychology. We need to be good representatives of veganism.

If you believe something really strange, like the Earth is flat, that you have been abducted by aliens, or you are Napoleon, you should keep that to yourself so you don't give people a bad impression of vegans (that is, if you care about animals at all).
teo123 wrote:And the Flat Earth Theory doesn't assume that there is a big conspiracy, but that only a few people are involved.
False. Flat Earth is an ad hoc hypothesis (it is NOT a real theory), or at best an ad hoc model or interpretation.
There is a big difference between a theory, and hypothesis, and a model.
Theories have explanatory power, and make specific testable predictions that are different from their competitors, and have been validated by success of those predictions.

Anyway, for anybody with a university level physics or Earth science education, it's pretty easy to prove FE wrong. This is MILLIONS of people. Every one of them, including myself, would have to be in on the conspiracy, otherwise the whole charade would collapse the moment one of them demonstrated FE to be true (and we would be very motivated to do so, we'd win a Nobel prize for sure).

Only a god-like power could create a deception complex enough to fool us, and yet you claim to be an atheist. The basic laws of physics would have to be manipulated across the globe to maintain the illusion, and the very nature of the world would have to violate all physics.

The mere fact that you believe it, I find personally insulting in some sense, because you're either implicitly calling me a liar, or saying you think I'm incapable of the basic reasoning required to work out the general shape of the Earth given my educational background.
It's the same way that Christians are personally insulting when they say morality only comes from God, and atheists can't really be moral -- that they're just pretending to trick Christians, or get something from others.

I do not simply accept what I am told, but am interested in the reasons why, and I have studied the ideas of Flat Earthers (it's an interesting case study in pseudoscience), and I know more about it than you do. I can assure you, the Earth is not flat. The arguments some people make against it may seem weak (like appeal to authority, or the "shadow on the moon", or saying you should travel a long distance in a straight line and make two right angles), but these are not the only reasons we know the Earth is not flat. It goes down to the very fundamentals of physics, like angular momentum and time dilation -- things very easy to test at home if you have some basic equipment. It's also based on optics, which you don't understand.

Based on the simplicity of proving that the Earth is round, only somebody incredibly ignorant or delusional would believe something like that, and the fact that you believe it implies that you believe everybody else who doesn't is incredibly ignorant or delusional. This is insulting to all of us.

This isn't even on the order of ghosts, UFO sightings, biblical literalism, or miracles -- those things are relatively easy to debunk, but nowhere nearly as easy to disprove empirically as the notion that the Earth is flat.

If you will honestly say that you are not committed to believing in a flat Earth, and that you will accept it if I prove you wrong, I can do so. But as of now, based on your post on the FE forum, I believe you are a hostile and intellectually dishonest person.

You don't seem to understand how bad this "belief" makes you look in others' eyes. I'm already far better educated in science than you are, but as a layman I would never trust a word out of your mouth about science as long as you professed this belief, and if you're trying to advocate for animals using science, you have started from a position of zero credibility. You would make ME want to not be vegan.
teo123 wrote:Just like there must have been a conspiracy claiming that Jesus rose from the dead.
No there was not. There were stories that became popular; that's not a conspiracy. If any of the story is true at all, it's very likely that he survived crucifixion and people just misunderstood what happened. The authorship of the Bible is well known to be incorrect; the books themselves were anonymous, and just given those names based on stories and guesses.

There's also a huge difference between an ancient conspiracy that's impossible to disprove, and a contemporary one with millions of co-conspirators that's trivial to disprove in your living room with an internet connection to a couple friends.
The empirical truth or falsehood of those matters of religion is more difficult to demonstrate. Flat Earth is in a completely different league.

It's as if you believed clouds were made from white pebbles, and that white rocks naturally rise into the sky as clouds because the lightness of the color makes them materially light weight.
Design a test for your hypothesis, and then pick up a white rock to test your new falsifiable theory.
teo123 wrote:OK, if you care, I tried to explain my reasons for believing that the Earth is flat in this post:
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/foru ... msg1756140
You are trying to emotionally abuse FE-ers, right? That means that you don't have any rational justification for your claim that the Earth is round!
He did make an argument, you just ignored it and posted dishonest rhetoric like this.
His argument was made in ignorance of the rationalizations FE believers have created -- he should have spent more time explaining optics, but that's probably not something he has experience with. I understand optics, and I can tell you why these arguments are valid (which he could not).

You'd have to prove yourself honest enough to accept correction, however.

Currently you have led me to believe you are dishonest. I don't typically take time from my day to help dishonest people find a truth they don't want to believe.
teo123 wrote:Yes, I was a bit rude and wordy, but that's because a person I was responding to called me (and all the Flat Earthers) morons. Please, take no offense.
I do take offense, because you're calling the majority of the scientific community, and anybody who has had university level physics or earth science education, liars or delusional -- including myself.
teo123 wrote:But, again, if you want to debate about the Flat Earth Theory, make a new thread on The Flat Earth Society forum. And make sure that Round Earth Theory doesn't suffer from the same problem you will complain about. :-)
I will not make a thread there, because as I have said, you have made me believe you are dishonest, and I do not trust you.

If you will promise to accept correction if you can not contest my arguments, we can discuss it here. But the dishonest rhetoric you used there --saying because he was "emotionally abusive" that he has no argument -- would not be tolerated here.

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