Thoughts on this?

Vegan message board for support on vegan related issues and questions.
Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome, but please keep it within debate topics.
User avatar
ThinkAboutThis
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:42 am
Diet: Vegan

Thoughts on this?

Post by ThinkAboutThis »

My friend (YouTube user: Joey Carbstrong) is planning a video, but he's a bit concerned about the ethics of the situation. I told him what my thoughts were about it, however, he wants a diversity of opinion so I thought it'd be great to post on here.

This is his question:
"I am thinking about bringing a live lamb out to a park where people are cooking BBQ's on Australia day to help them make the connection. I will ask them if they want to pat the lamb, then I will question their morals in a clever way. This will be filmed for YouTube and then in turn would create a positive impact and influence others not to participate in the mass slaughter of baby lambs. My dilemma is I'm concerned that this could be considered borderline exploitation? But the use of the animal would be for a greater good. Also there is a man selling live lambs for slaughter and was going to purchase the lamb which would save its life and it would then become my pet. Would this be considered supporting an unethical sheep breeder?"
MandiblesBytes
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:25 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by MandiblesBytes »

I think this would be an amazing idea! He should look into animal sanctuaries and see if they would help him with the video and if they had a lamb/sheep for a day that would enjoy a nice day out with humans. Mostly because, yes he would be saving that lamb's life but, he would also be supporting the sheep breeder. On top of helping the breeder, the lamb purchased might not be very social due to be only brought into this world for meat. If he is looking for a lamb to be a pet then he should look into adoption, but if he just wants a lamb mostly for the video, look into animal sanctuaries.

Hope this helps! :)
User avatar
Jaywalker
Full Member
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:58 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by Jaywalker »

Great idea! As long as he doesn't come off as rude or overtly confrontational like some demonstrators are prone to, I imagine most people will at least consider the implications. I don't think it's exploitation, but the lamb may possibly suffer stress due to being separated from the flock or being near loud noises and large human crowds. This can be minimized by using a lamb accustomed to close contact with humans, preferably under the supervision of an expert. He shouldn't do it by himself if he's not equipped to handle lambs.

I'm not so sure about purchasing the lamb from a source like that, because as MandiblesBytes said, it does mean supporting the sheep breeder. Considering it isn't possible to predict the net moral outcome, it's better to err on the side of caution and get the lamb from somewhere else.

Good luck to him!
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10370
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

"I am thinking about bringing a live lamb out to a park where people are cooking BBQ's on Australia day to help them make the connection. I will ask them if they want to pat the lamb, then I will question their morals in a clever way. This will be filmed for YouTube and then in turn would create a positive impact and influence others not to participate in the mass slaughter of baby lambs.
This sounds like potentially good activism if he can pull it off.

However, he should be aware of all of the relevant laws; he might get arrested for bringing a "farm animal" into a public park where this is not allowed. Cities can have unreasonable restrictions on things like that. Some areas don't even allow live livestock in the city limits.

He should make sure to talk to the police about it first, and explain his plans in detail to make sure he doesn't run afoul of any ordinances, and possibly contact a lawyer.
My dilemma is I'm concerned that this could be considered borderline exploitation? But the use of the animal would be for a greater good.
The former concern is deontological, but the latter justification is consequential -- he's on the right track there. Use, or "exploitation" is not morally relevant as long as the animal is not being harmed. However, it's almost impossible to use an animal in this way with zero harm (or zero risk of harm), so the cost and benefit has to be considered.

This is the same benefit that organizations like zoos can provide for the public; exposure to animals may help people empathize, vs. never having met any. Although zoos (sanctuaries open to the public) with farmed animals may be more beneficial for modern animal concerns.

The trick is that the cost-benefit analysis in these situations is very difficult. How much good would it do? How much harm?
Zoos, in the way most are set up, probably do more harm to most of the animals than good to other animals.
Also there is a man selling live lambs for slaughter and was going to purchase the lamb which would save its life and it would then become my pet. Would this be considered supporting an unethical sheep breeder?"
It would, and that would be one of the harms involved in the cost-benefit analysis. If he can find a rescue, that would be much better.

Harms: Support for the breeder. Confinement for the animal (what kind of environment will the lamb be kept in most of the time as a pet?). Possible stress from being taken to the park and exposed to noise and unknown humans.

Benefits: Possibly encouraging some people to reduce meat consumption at the park. The video may do even more.

The only way to really weigh harms against benefits is to measure them. That means using surveys and the like to try to determine your impact.

Animal charity evaluators do a lot of that: http://www.animalcharityevaluators.org/research/

If he's not gathering that kind of information to do analysis on the impact of doing this, then I would recommend to not do it: In general, blind activism is more likely to be ineffective activism. But as long as he's exploring the possibilities this kind of activism provides and getting some solid numbers from surveys, even if it turns out not to be useful, the information gathered about the method would be.
User avatar
ThinkAboutThis
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:42 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by ThinkAboutThis »

Cheers for the replies. :)

I've sent Joey the link so he can read through it, and now I'll bug him to join the forum.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10370
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Excellent! I hope he joins, we'd love to have him here.
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by PsYcHo »

In response to his question; would buying a slave in order to free them be supporting a slave trader? He is not there selling lambs because of people like you. Just as a slave would have preferred not to have been in their situation in the first place, I'm sure they would appreciate being rescued as opposed to certain death. (Even though I eat meat, I don't eat lamb.........please point out my hypocrisy gently) I almost guarantee at least a couple of people will not eat lamb again.
Cirion Spellbinder
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1008
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:28 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Presumably somewhere

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by Cirion Spellbinder »

PsYcHo wrote:Even though I eat meat, I don't eat lamb.........
Why is this the case?
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by PsYcHo »

............they are too cute. and they can cry................
inator
Full Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:50 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Thoughts on this?

Post by inator »

PsYcHo wrote:............they are too cute. and they can cry................
Well I guess you already know that's a terrible reason. But for argument's sake - look, cows cry too.

http://www.sun-gazing.com/cow-terrified ... ed-headed/
Post Reply