Calcium needs for vegans?

Vegan message board for support on vegan related issues and questions.
Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome, but please keep it within debate topics.
gjbrusas
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:14 pm
Diet: Vegan

Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by gjbrusas »

Hi guys, I´m new here and got to this page via a video in youtube. Rock Climber and new to veganism, although I´ve been vegetarian for a year now.
I came across "cron-o-meter" and I´m using it a lot to track my transition into veganism. Everything seems to be fine, except for calcium which I´m almost always a bit bellow the 100% mark. What I´m wondering, and here is my question (and maybe it´s a stupid one....), is this:

I´ve read that animal protein, particularly dairy, causes calcium to leave the bones as part of the process that the body has to process this protein, and that is why they add extra calcium to milk, at least partially. If this is correct, then I wonder.... wouldn´t the calcium requirements be less if you don´t eat animal protein? Because you don´t have any digestive process taking calcium from your bones? I´m assuming the "average daily mark" is for the general public, who probably eat animal protein. Does this make sense at all?

Appreciate any feedback!

Cheers from Argentina!
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Hi, and welcome!

We'd be glad to help.

Calcium is a rock, and it's pretty much dirt cheap. You can find it pretty easily in the form of food grade lime -- calcium hydroxide -- which is used to process food such as corn. Don't consume it directly, since it's very alkaline and may upset your stomach, but you can mix it in a tomato sauce or something, and it will be neutralized by the acid. Get a measuring spoon and be careful about eating too much; you only need a fraction of a gram a day.

gjbrusas wrote: I´ve read that animal protein, particularly dairy, causes calcium to leave the bones as part of the process that the body has to process this protein, and that is why they add extra calcium to milk, at least partially.
This is a myth: http://nutritionfacts.org/2014/07/31/do ... eoporosis/

I don't think there's any compelling reason to believe we need less calcium than others.

Calcium requirements may be set unnecessarily high, since there is a safety margin on those numbers, but I would expect that to apply to anybody. However, I wouldn't bet on it. Try to get pretty close to the RDA, and if you can't, then consider the possibility of supplementing, since Calcium isn't expensive, and it's probably pretty harmless as long as you don't overdo it.
gjbrusas
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:14 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by gjbrusas »

Thank you very much for the reply!

The article does make sense. I still wonder why some studies show that the countries with the biggest dairy product ingest have the biggest rates of osteoporosis. If those numbers are correct, and the article too, then obviously there is an additional factor that they share and produces the disease. You know how it is with medicine and science too... one day they say chocolate is good for you, and the next day they take it away lol

Anyways, I´m off by not a big amount, mainly at 80% of what this site is saying I should take. I probably won´t supplement right now (I´m taking a multi-vitamin that has calcium, but very little... mainly taking it for B12, but once I finish it I´ll probably switch to another one with just B12... the one I´m taking now is not vegan also, as it has gelatin - douh... didn´t check when I bought it :( ) . I´ll just focus a bit more in calcium-rich veggies.

Cheers!
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

gjbrusas wrote:If those numbers are correct, and the article too, then obviously there is an additional factor that they share and produces the disease.
Possibly, but we just don't know so it's better to err on the side of caution and aim for the RDI anyway.
gjbrusas wrote:You know how it is with medicine and science too... one day they say chocolate is good for you, and the next day they take it away lol
I don't think that's the case. Cocoa powder is good for you; it's the just saturated fat in cocoa butter that's bad for you.
Choose cocoa powder, and mix it with nuts and dried fruit instead (blend or crush it together) for a healthy chocolaty treat.

Usually perception of rapidly changing nutritional science is not based on science itself, but yellow journalism drawing wild and unwarranted conclusions from limited studies.

It has always been true that chocolate as a whole substance (cocoa powder and cocoa butter mixed) contains good and bad things; it just depends on what sensational exaggerations and cherry picking the journalists want to go with any particular day.
gjbrusas wrote:Anyways, I´m off by not a big amount, mainly at 80% of what this site is saying I should take.
That's not too bad. You can probably bridge the gap by eating a few extra collard greens or mustard greens.

Don't stress about the vitamin; next time you can get a vegan one. Anyway, it's just a tiny trace of substance. It's the 99.9% that's important. :)
User avatar
garrethdsouza
Senior Member
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:47 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: India

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by garrethdsouza »

Supplemental calcium (but not dietary calcium) can increase your risk of kidney stones, especially if coupled with supplemental vit D
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone#Diagnosis
In the early 1990s, a study conducted for the Women's Health Initiative in the US found that postmenopausal women who consumed 1000 mg of supplemental calcium and 400 international units of vitamin D per day for seven years had a 17% higher risk of developing kidney stones than subjects taking a placebo.[21] The Nurses' Health Study also showed an association between supplemental calcium intake and kidney stone formation.[4]
I have also heard that calcium citrate supplements are better than calcium carbonate ones as citrate is a natural inhibitor of stone formation. I'll have to dig through for the source.

So if you can have a dietary calcium source (rather than supplement) that might be a better option. Also, majority of kidney stones are calcium oxalate, so don't depend on oxalate rich foods for your sources of calcium. Kale, mustard greens, brocolli would be better.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium ... ney_stones
About 80% of kidney stones are partially or entirely of the calcium oxalate type. They form when urine has been persistently acidic. Some of the oxalate in urine is produced by the body. Calcium and oxalate in the diet play a part, but are not the only factors that affect the formation of calcium oxalate stones.
Of course only some people might face issues with supplements/oxalate rich diets so may not be a reason to avoid them/not meet your calcium RDA. If you are to get a supplement, choose a routinely used vegan brand, maybe calcium citrate though other alternatives may also be OK. If I remember correctly Gregger is OK with calcium carbonate.
http://bitesizevegan.com/vegan-health/g ... facts-org/
I still wonder why some studies show that the countries with the biggest dairy product ingest have the biggest rates of osteoporosis.
As far as osteoporosis is concerned, the discrepancy in studies AFAIK is actually incorrect/misrepresented. Rather than hip fracture, a more accurate measure is vertebral fracture which it turns oioiut does correlate with dietary calcium, Asians actually are worse off than milk guzzling Caucasians. Also it would appear there's more of an issue for women than men.
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/bones
Epidemiological studies
The observed ethnic differences in fracture incidences may be due to the fact that hip fracture risk was affected by fall risk, whereas the risk of vertebral fracture mostly depends on bone strength. Despite the low hip fracture rate in our population, Hong Kong women had a higher prevalence of osteoporosis [technical parenthetical deleted] than US Caucasian women (35.8% vs. 20%, respectively) and a similar prevalence of about 6% in Hong Kong and US Caucasian men.
You know how it is with medicine and science too... one day they say chocolate is good for you, and the next day they take it away lol
This is actually blatant misrepresentation of science, its an anti science confusionists tactic that's employed by many sciemce denialists/pseudoscience apologists like creationists, nutrition confusionists etc. Generally while there are exceptions (often for valid methodological reasons), generally the more scientific studies on the subject, the more we wind up narrowing down to one conclusion rather than multiple mutually contradictory results as the anti sciencers/ignorsnt like to paint it. That's why when you look at meta analyses rather than the next new study, one arrives closer at a single conclusion. The "science iss constantly contradicting itself" myth is as a result of such confusionists/ignorant people and also due to the way science results reporting is conducted by the ignorant press who just report the next new study rather than reporting it in the context of a meta analysis/lit survey.
This is a very good article on the subject:

http://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8264355/re ... study-hype

See image2.
While it's true, that studies have shown everything causes and prevents cancer as is reported by the press, if you look at the picture carefully, you can see that most studies show wine/tomatoes as protective while beef is the stark opposite. Also the scales are off so beef is actually much worse. But shoddy press reporting and myth spreading mean some folks would conclude beef and tomatoes are in the same league.
“We are the cosmos made conscious and life is the means by which the universe understands itself.”

― Brian Cox
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

garrethdsouza wrote: I have also heard that calcium citrate supplements are better than calcium carbonate ones as citrate is a natural inhibitor of stone formation. I'll have to dig through for the source.
Please do. Citrate would likely compete with oxalate, but I would also expect it to be metabolized so I'm not sure if that makes a difference by the time it reaches your kidneys.

A diet high in animal protein might be more harmful, though, by acidifying urine?
garrethdsouza wrote: Also, majority of kidney stones are calcium oxalate, so don't depend on oxalate rich foods for your sources of calcium. Kale, mustard greens, brocolli would be better.
This, definitely. I keep spinach to a minimum.
Brassica is your best bet.
garrethdsouza wrote: Of course only some people might face issues with supplements/oxalate rich diets so may not be a reason to avoid them/not meet your calcium RDA.
Also, comparative risk; stones are a rather minor problem if you're in a country with access to modern medical care.
inator
Full Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:50 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by inator »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Please do. Citrate would likely compete with oxalate, but I would also expect it to be metabolized so I'm not sure if that makes a difference by the time it reaches your kidneys.

A diet high in animal protein might be more harmful, though, by acidifying urine?
Some citrate usually ends up in the urine.

http://kidneystones.uchicago.edu/acp-gu ... edication/
Citrate is metabolized as citric acid with uptake of a proton, which leads to new bicarbonate creation in blood. Renal proximal tubule cells can excrete the extra alkali as bicarbonate, raising urine pH, or as citrate which does not alter urine pH.
So if it's excreted as citrate (which is usually the case), then it binds calcium and reduces any crystal formation.
If it ends up being bicarbonate, it raises urine pH - which only affects calcium phosphate stones, not calcium oxalate.



The main problem that I see for calcium supplements is that they seem to increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4125316/
At the population level, any effects of calcium supplements on fracture risk are outweighed by the increased cardiovascular risk. Likewise, at an individual level, the increased cardiovascular risk will generally outweigh any benefits on fracture prevention. Therefore, the widespread use of calcium supplements to improve bone health should be abandoned.
Only supplementation seems to be a problem, not dietary calcium, but they still don't understand the mechanism.

It might also have a lot to do with magnesium deficiency, since magnesium is a natural calcium channel blocker, and low intracellular calcium levels are generally healthy. So maybe make sure not to exceed a 2:1 calcium to magnesium ratio.
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

inator wrote: The main problem that I see for calcium supplements is that they seem to increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4125316/
At the population level, any effects of calcium supplements on fracture risk are outweighed by the increased cardiovascular risk. Likewise, at an individual level, the increased cardiovascular risk will generally outweigh any benefits on fracture prevention. Therefore, the widespread use of calcium supplements to improve bone health should be abandoned.
Only supplementation seems to be a problem, not dietary calcium, but they still don't understand the mechanism.
The trouble with population studies without any notion of mechanism is that only holds true for people on typical diets. The supplementation may be giving too much calcium, given that dietary calcium is already high for omnivores (straw that broke the carnist's heart).

We'd need to see something better controlled, or at least calcium supplementation for a population consuming less overall calcium to begin with.
inator wrote: It might also have a lot to do with magnesium deficiency, since magnesium is a natural calcium channel blocker, and low intracellular calcium levels are generally healthy. So maybe make sure not to exceed a 2:1 calcium to magnesium ratio.
This would seem harder to exceed. Do you think this would be common?


EDIT (with respect to cardiovascular disease risk):

New information on Calcium!

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 153144.htm
UK study supports cardiovascular safety of calcium and vitamin D supplementation
No link between calcium supplementation, with or without vitamin D, and hospital admissions or mortality due to cardiovascular events
Date:
April 16, 2016
Source:
International Osteoporosis Foundation
Summary:
Rsearchers have presented a new study that supports the cardiovascular safety of calcium and vitamin D supplementation. The study was based on analysis of the UK Biobank, a very large study comprising 502,664 men and women aged 40-69 years.
Given this, I wouldn't worry about calcium supplementation, even up to a gram. The links to cardiovascular disease are probably due to poor controls (and dairy) in other studies.
(this doesn't apply to risk of stone formation, if there is one from some sources)
inator
Full Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:50 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by inator »

brimstoneSalad wrote: The trouble with population studies without any notion of mechanism is that only holds true for people on typical diets. The supplementation may be giving too much calcium, given that dietary calcium is already high for omnivores (straw that broke the carnist's heart).

We'd need to see something better controlled, or at least calcium supplementation for a population consuming less overall calcium to begin with.
True. But if you look at the methodology of some of these studies, it looks like they did try to control for dietary calcium where possible - though of course everything was probably self-reported.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4125316/
However, when the cohort was divided by quintile of dietary calcium intake, there was no interaction and the risk of MI with calcium supplements was similar in the groups with the lowest and highest calcium intake. There was also no interaction between dietary calcium intake and the risk of stroke or the composite cardiovascular endpoint in this meta-analysis [Bolland et al. 2010a]. Therefore, the increased cardiovascular risk from calcium supplements appears to be independent of dietary calcium intake.
There is some notion of mechanisms, it's just not feasible to test them clinically since it takes so long for cardiovascular events to occur (same as with cigarettes and meat).

I'm not saying that the evidence for the calcium supplements - CVD correlation has reached the point of clear causation, but neither has the evidence for calcium supplements helping with bone fractures. So for now the potential benefits don't seem to exceed the risks.

brimstoneSalad wrote:This would seem harder to exceed. Do you think this would be common?
I'm looking at cronometer now and, just from dietary sources, I've slightly exceeded the maximum 2:1 ratio. Which is to be avoided itself - they say ideal is 1:1 or less, but I don't see how anyone could pull that off.

By the way, milk has a 10:1 ratio. Then again plants have phytates and oxalates.
User avatar
garrethdsouza
Senior Member
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:47 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: India

Re: Calcium needs for vegans?

Post by garrethdsouza »

brimstoneSalad wrote:
garrethdsouza wrote: I have also heard that calcium citrate supplements are better than calcium carbonate ones as citrate is a natural inhibitor of stone formation. I'll have to dig through for the source.
Please do. Citrate would likely compete with oxalate, but I would also expect it to be metabolized so I'm not sure if that makes a difference by the time it reaches your kidneys.
I had come across it here http://kidneystones.uchicago.edu/citrat ... nt-stones/

Unless unavoidable, a whole food plant based source would probably be better.
“We are the cosmos made conscious and life is the means by which the universe understands itself.”

― Brian Cox
Post Reply