Gout & Vegan (Is it possible?)

[reborn]

Hey all,

I am a 27 year old male that got diagnosed with gout 6 months ago. As much as it might surprise you I was only slightly overweight even when I got my diagnosis and while I ate meat everyday and did a fair amount of drinking it was nothing out of the ordinary. As it turns out my issue is genetic despite awkwardly enough, nobody in my family to be known to have gout. Turns out I don't have some enzyme or whatever to process uric acid properly and quickly like most people.

Anyways, since I got my diagnosis I turned vegetarian. It is something I actually have been considering for the last two years, getting diagnosed with gout was the thing that completely convinced me. Ironically, I feel like getting diagnosed with gout has been a blessing, but that is another topic of discussion.

My question is the following, I kinda want to go Vegan and completely cut off all animal products, but my issue is considering I have gout and I can't eat beans will I be able to get enough nutrition?

[brimstoneSalad]

Hi, and welcome!

Sounds like your doctor is some decade behind the times on Gout research. Beans are fine for you to eat in moderation.

Studies in the early 2000s have found that other dietary factors once believed associated are, in fact, not.[12][13] Specifically, moderate consumption of purine-rich vegetables (e.g. beans, peas, lentils, and spinach) are not associated with the development of gout.[14

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout#Lifestyle

You should be able to eat enough beans to meet your lysine needs without a worry.

The issue is mainly consuming meat/seafood, or alcohol or fructose (I would avoid too much fruit juice, or anything sweetened with high fructose corn syrup -- sweetened drinks in general).

[reborn]

Hi, and welcome!

Sounds like your doctor is some decade behind the times on Gout research. Beans are fine for you to eat in moderation.

Studies in the early 2000s have found that other dietary factors once believed associated are, in fact, not.[12][13] Specifically, moderate consumption of purine-rich vegetables (e.g. beans, peas, lentils, and spinach) are not associated with the development of gout.[14

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout#Lifestyle

You should be able to eat enough beans to meet your lysine needs without a worry.

The issue is mainly consuming meat/seafood, or alcohol or fructose (I would avoid too much fruit juice, or anything sweetened with high fructose corn syrup -- sweetened drinks in general).

I should have clarified a bit more I suppose. I know I can eat beans in moderation but I don't know if it will be enough etc.

Also I should point out since going vegetarian my diet is ~ 60% raw and 40% cooked vegeterian food. I should have clarified also that I don't eat fish, however, I figure that is self explanatory when I say I turned vegetarian. I avoid juices in general but I drink two orange juices a week to increase my urine pH level. I also squeeze a lemon and add a cup of water for the same purpose.

I have completely quit alcohol too. As well as any processed foods or anything with glucose in it including soft drinks/sodas etc. I pretty much only drink water and coffee and the two juices of orange juice.

I am not in the US so corn syrup was never a problem in my diet, but I generally am not much of a lover of sweet things outside of chocolate and fruit. As for sweetened non-sweet food I always check the sugar numbers, I honestly try to go as natural as possible.

I guess my biggest concern is when unable to eat beans on a regular basis how to get enough proteins, lysine etc. From my understanding beans are extremely important in a Vegan diet as they form a full protein when combined with rice and so on. I can't go around eating bananas 24/7.

I am really almost determined to go Vegan, but I need to plan this out properly in a fashion that also won't trigger gout attacks.

At the moment due to the sudden sharp weight loss I've experienced due to going Vegeterian and 60% raw food my uric acid is going up and down like crazy. My doctor claims its only normal as the fat that gets dissolved there are purines that raise the uric acid. I haven't really researched the subject, but I've heard from family friends of ours that have gout that they had similar experiences.

The thing is, whatever happened after my first gout attack in my organism, I am getting signs and sharp very quick pains (2-5second) in my toe at levels of uric acid that honestly are just slightly above the norm. During my first crisis my uric acid was 478, and I appear to be getting the pains in question at around 440-450. Luckily, they are mostly an irritation and are nothing to compare to a gout attack, but I hope you get across my concerns. During my gout attack I was literally unable to walk for two days and they told me that was a "mildest" attack you can get as my foot didnt turn red or swell. I have no intention of figuring how a full blown attack feels like.

[brimstoneSalad]

I should have clarified a bit more I suppose. I know I can eat beans in moderation but I don't know if it will be enough etc.

It doesn't take many beans to get enough lysine; and not only beans have lysine in them, they just have more of it (you are getting small amounts from other things too, so it adds up and if you just add a few beans it can push it over into the green).

Watermelon is also a source of lysine: If you eat half of one (not something I recommend).

Can you give me an example of your diet now? Such as types and amounts of foods you're eating currently.

Also I should point out since going vegetarian my diet is ~ 60% raw and 40% cooked vegeterian food.

Why so much raw? Raw food is harder to digest and absorb nutrients from. At least steaming is usually a good idea for veggies.

I generally am not much of a lover of sweet things outside of chocolate and fruit.

Fruit is high in fructose. I'm not sure how strong the connection there is to gout from fruit rather than fructose sweetened drinks, but personally I would avoid too much of it to start, and then slowly introduce a more moderate amount of fruit later on after everything is under control.

The only benefit you're likely getting from fruit in terms of the gout is the large amount of water that comes with it. I would just drink more water to replace any fruit reduction.
Although you may want to make any changes slowly just in case a quick change triggers an attack.

I can't go around eating bananas 24/7.

Right, I recommend eating zero bananas a day. If you're going to eat fruit, smaller berries (strawberries, blueberries, and definitely blackberries) are the best choice since they have actual health value (bananas are the junk food of the fruit world). Berries are loaded with phytonutrients and antioxidants which bananas are very poor in. And blackberries are actually so low in sugar that they have a significant amount of protein in them per calorie.

In terms of nutrition, though, I would still limit fruit to a couple handfuls a day, and try to choose more whole grains, beans, and vegetables.
With fruit, aside from blackberries, too many of the calories come from sugar, and I would be worried about the fructose both in terms of gout, and them not providing enough fat or protein. Essential fatty acids are essential (as in the name), and without them we get sick, so it's important to have a good fat source, like nuts and seeds, or a moderate amount of canola oil, to provide that.

Without knowing more about your diet now, I would suggest slowly replacing the fruit you are eating with beans, and monitoring your gout pain (keep a food diary, and record any pain), to see if it's getting better or worse.
If it starts getting worse, then cut back on the beans a little.

Once you reach 1.5 cups of beans a day (about 300 grams), that should be plenty, and you can stop increasing it if you want.
Even 1 cup, or 1/2 cup may be enough, but that depends on what else you're eating.

I am really almost determined to go Vegan, but I need to plan this out properly in a fashion that also won't trigger gout attacks.

I certainly understand. Cronometer is a great tool to help do that: https://cronometer.com/
But I'd say make any changes in protein slowly, and keep a food diary. It's OK to not eat enough lysine for a week or so, as long as you adjust to a stable and complete diet after that.

And of course, make sure to supplement on B-12 for sure (1,000 mcg tablet twice a week), and vitamin D if you don't get a lot of sunlight.
You could also supplement on DHA and EPA from algae; this may help with inflammation.

At the moment due to the sudden sharp weight loss I've experienced due to going Vegeterian and 60% raw food my uric acid is going up and down like crazy. My doctor claims its only normal as the fat that gets dissolved there are purines that raise the uric acid. I haven't really researched the subject, but I've heard from family friends of ours that have gout that they had similar experiences.

That makes sense. Weight loss is good (if you were overweight), but you may want to slow your weight loss by increasing your calories a bit.
If you're having trouble eating enough calories to slow it down, then add in some extra canola oil (low acid rapeseed oil), and you should be able to slow your weight loss.
The slower it goes, the less likely you'll have a gout attack.

[reborn]

I am at work at the moment so I can't give you a detailed answer but thank you for your input.

As for fruit and gout, I will say fruits are HIGHLY recommended when you have gout. For some unknown reason fructose in natural fruit has 0 effect on gout.

I also should say Bananas and grape are a MUST if you have gout. Actually one banana a day is recommended for gout as it decreases uric acid.

[brimstoneSalad]

As for fruit and gout, I will say fruits are HIGHLY recommended when you have gout. For some unknown reason fructose in natural fruit has 0 effect on gout.

Are there any clinical trials controlling for variables showing that?

It may be because of the water content, the vitamin C, potassium, or because for most people fruit will displace (by satiating through sheer volume) other higher purine foods; not necessarily because the fructose itself has no effect, but possibly because other factors mitigate it due to other dietary variables. I.O.W. Eating more fruit usually means people will eat less meat, because they're filled up on fruit, and will more get Potassium and Vitamin C that they wouldn't usually get from grains, along with extra hydration.

I'm skeptical that there wouldn't be better alternatives with lower fructose that provide greater benefits.

I also should say Bananas and grape are a MUST if you have gout. Actually one banana a day is recommended for gout as it decreases uric acid.

I found a number of places discussing bananas, but mainly just in terms of vitamin C and Potassium

but bananas can help decrease the symptoms of gout due to its high levels of potassium and vitamin C.

http://www.ehow.com/video_4973806_bananas-gout.html

If it is because of the vitamin C, oranges would seem to be a better source. But if Vitamin C is what helps, you might also consider buying a vitamin C supplement to dissolve in water.
For potassium, it's pretty easy to find a "lite salt" which is a mix of sodium and potassium chlorides, or even a sodium free salt which is mainly potassium (you have to be careful with these, though, because you can overdose on potassium).

I've also seen suggestions about increasing magnesium and decreasing calcium; this is easy to do in a dietary context outside of fruit though, and eating larger amounts of folic acid (which would also be easy to supplement on).

Given that many of these are evidence based claims (most seem to be), if it were me, I would supplement instead of trying to rely on bananas, since bananas themselves will limit your ability to get these beneficial vitamins and minerals by their bulk (as you said, you might have to eat them all day).
Eating Bananas is an easy recommendation for a doctor to make, but not necessarily the most efficient.

Anyway, if you really like bananas/grapes and the sugar isn't causing you trouble, one banana/a bunch of grapes a day is probably not harmful.
From a nutritional perspective, if you later want to improve your diet, I recommend reducing fruit and swapping in berries which have a higher antioxidant content, and look into supplementation. Of course, right now you're just trying to avoid Gout attacks, and that's totally reasonable that you want to take things slowly.

Maybe Bananas have some special substance in them beyond Potassium, Vitamin C, Magnesium, Folic acid, and water that somehow helps. I just haven't been able to find anything about it. Every article I can find is talking about particular vitamins and minerals that are easy to supplement on without having to eat bananas all day.

[reborn]

Sorry for lack of response and appreciate the feed back I pretty much have stuck to a fully vegan diet since my last comment and so far so good. Eating decent amount of beans no problems in the toe . Pretty easy to cut out diary, especially when there is such delicious almond milk around and Tofu Scramble to substitute my Scrambled Eggs. Can't complain at all, I'd even say I am already feeling more energetic. I even started going to the gym again on top of my 2-3 times of tennis a week. We will see how it goes as time progresses, but sticking to a vegan diet seems extremely easy (as long as you know how to cook).

[brimstoneSalad]

Thanks for the update, that's great to hear. Tofu scrambles are great. If you like eggy taste, you could even try black salt (some people don't like it, it tastes pretty much exactly like egg).

I'm glad it's going well, please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions or problems.

[reborn]

So a short update. So far so good. I went to have my blood tests, no issues, calcium,iron, protein bla bla bla, actually all of them are on the high end of the healthy spectrum. Even did B12 (Ive been vegetarian for quite a while before going vegan so tho its worth a check) and guess what its perfectly fine .

The only thing off is again uric acid. Surprisingly my uric acid is way above the norm at the moment, which I guess is not surprising considering last week I've been eating mostly beans due to work. Where I live by coincidence a good portion of our local cuisine is actually vegan and Ive been too busy to cook.

However, whats funny is that despite my uric acid is 600 at the moment I have no issues, none of the usual short needle like pains Ive described. I was honestly surprised to see my uric acid that high. I am almost convinced that purines from plants don't matter to gout. Almost .

[brimstoneSalad]

Great news, thanks for the update!

Are you taking B-12 now?