Can we make a supplement?

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thebestofenergy
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Re: Can we make a supplement?

Post by thebestofenergy » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:10 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:D3 - 1000 IU of D3 (mcg?) How much oil is this dissolved in? Vitashine Cholecalciferol
2.5 mg of cholecalciferol are 100'000 IU (so 1000 IU = 25 mcg)
Regarding oil, in my supplement there are 10'000 IU / ml (250 mcg/ml)
brimstoneSalad wrote:B2 - 600 mcg (is this pure?)
Yes (what do you mean by pure?)
brimstoneSalad wrote:Choline - CDP / Alpha GPC 400 mg (are these solids, and what % choline are they? Do we need to add more in these forms? What's the bowel tolerance?)
We have to choose between CDP or Alpha GPC.
GPC http://www.yiyaochem.com/news/116.html
Properties: colorless transparent liquid or white wax solid, easy to moisture absorption, but poorly soluble in water. Soluble in chloroform, petroleum ether, benzene, ethanol and ether. Insoluble in acetone. The unsaturated fatty acid oxidation can quickly in the air.
CDP http://www.smarternootropics.com/cdp-choline/ (very useful article)
Citicoline is water soluble and over 95% of an oral dose is absorbed
I also found how much choline is in them:
Alpha-GPC contains far more choline per gram than citicoline does. The molecular masses are as follows;

Choline: 104.17g /mol (17)

GPC: 257.221g /mol (18) – therefore 40% approximate choline or 400mg per gram.

CDP: 510.31g /mol (19) - therefore 20% approximate choline or 200mg per gram.
--
brimstoneSalad wrote:Zinc - 5 mg @ 35 mg Zinc gluconate (14.35% Zinc) or: 32 mg Zinc Ascorbate (15.73% Zinc 84.27% C (26.8 mg C))
As far as I can see, zinc supplements remain a personal preference. There are many types, but I can't find one that's best (altouhg, zinc picolinate has the highest absorption rate).
brimstoneSalad wrote:EPA/DHA - 400 mg (how concentrated is this? How much oil base?)
......Antioxidants:
...............A - 300 mcg (1000 IU)
...............E - 15 mg (or more- we could maybe ask those companies, but I'm not sure if they'd give that info away?)
...............?+
What DEVA puts in their Omega-3 DHA-EPA supplements is: http://www.veganstore.com/product/deva- ... luten-free
Microalgae Oil: 500mg
which typically provides:
Total DHA+EPA: 200mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid): 120 to 140 mg
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid): 60 to 80 mg
brimstoneSalad wrote:Also: Boron. How much? What form?
Upper safe limit: 11 mg for 9-13 years old, 20 mg for adults
Because boron is not considered an essential element, there are no specific recommended daily allowances for it. However, some researchers have suggested that people take one milligram of boron supplements per day. In addition, because boron is prevalent in many fruits and vegetables, most people consume an average of two to six milligrams of boron per day.
http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/vitamin ... /boron.php
Regarding which form of boron is best, I found this supplement http://www.easyvitaminsandminerals.com/boron.html
It seems very efficient (it is made of Calcium FructoBorate and Fiberrific)
Boron is also best taken with manganese, calcium and Vitamin B2.
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cufflink
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Post by cufflink » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:28 pm

I've been taking this vitamin-mineral supplement every day for 25 or 30 years now:

http://www.supernutritionusa.com/opti-energy_pack.php

I've corresponded with the manufacturer. It's a family-run company, and I've been impressed with their integrity. This product isn't cheap, but I seem to be doing well on it health-wise. Whether that's attributable to the supplement or to other factors isn't clear, but it's been pretty much: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Wondering what you folks think of the formulation.
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
One Moment of the Well of Life to taste--
The Stars are setting, and the Caravan
Draws to the Dawn of Nothing--Oh, make haste!

—Fitzgerald, Rubáiyát, 2nd ed., XLIX

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thebestofenergy
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Post by thebestofenergy » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:05 pm

cufflink wrote:I've been taking this vitamin-mineral supplement every day for 25 or 30 years now:

http://www.supernutritionusa.com/opti-energy_pack.php

I've corresponded with the manufacturer. It's a family-run company, and I've been impressed with their integrity. This product isn't cheap, but I seem to be doing well on it health-wise. Whether that's attributable to the supplement or to other factors isn't clear, but it's been pretty much: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Wondering what you folks think of the formulation.
Wow, it's surpringly good for a multivitamin. It has everything, and a lot of everything. No wonder you've been doing well :D
That said, lots of things are an overkill. 1000 mcg of cyanocobalamin, for example, is unnecessary, but it doesn't hurt.
Some of them even touch the upper safe limits. I'm surprised iron is that high in that supplement, same for zinc and magnesium; probably a bit too much of those.
If you've been taking it for so many years without problems, keep taking it.
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cufflink
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Post by cufflink » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:43 pm

thebestofenergy wrote: Wow, it's surpringly good for a multivitamin. It has everything, and a lot of everything. No wonder you've been doing well :D . . .

If you've been taking it for so many years without problems, keep taking it.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. :)
thebestofenergy wrote:I'm surprised iron is that high in that supplement, same for zinc and magnesium; probably a bit too much of those.
They make an iron-free formulation, which is the one I've been taking.
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
One Moment of the Well of Life to taste--
The Stars are setting, and the Caravan
Draws to the Dawn of Nothing--Oh, make haste!

—Fitzgerald, Rubáiyát, 2nd ed., XLIX

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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:53 pm

thebestofenergy wrote: 2.5 mg of cholecalciferol are 100'000 IU (so 1000 IU = 25 mcg)
Regarding oil, in my supplement there are 10'000 IU / ml (250 mcg/ml)
Wow, that's a lot of oil.
Yes (what do you mean by pure?)
I mean, not inherently in a medium, or bound in a compound. So the mass is what it is, and there aren't really a bunch of forms of it.
Alpha-GPC contains far more choline per gram than citicoline does. The molecular masses are as follows;

Choline: 104.17g /mol (17)

GPC: 257.221g /mol (18) – therefore 40% approximate choline or 400mg per gram.

CDP: 510.31g /mol (19) - therefore 20% approximate choline or 200mg per gram.
That's a big difference.

GPC, as a waxy solid, seems like the best bet. I like CDP better, but that amount is so small.


What do you think is the biggest supplement size that would be convenient?

I was thinking 5g, but that might not be possible without scaling a couple of the massive components down a bit.

Maybe with a mind more towards just making sure to provide enough of those larger components at two or three a day.

Maybe

275mg Choline (at 20% density) 1375mg
333mg Ca (at 40% density) 833mg
70mg Mg (at about 10% density) 700mg
200mg EPA/DHA (at 40% density) 500mg

One a day is still a pretty good supplement- plenty of the essentials B-12 and D.
Two gives you the full recommended DHA/EPA, and Choline (and enough calcium that it would be hard to be deficient)
And three gives you the full RDI of calcium, and tops you off on the rest above the needed amounts

That would keep the size more reasonable as a bite size kind of thing, about six grams, I think.

6.5 kg for a year's supply. Packed well, maybe 3 liters.

Looks like domestic shipping would be a 4 month supply, or a 3 year supply, based on USPS flat rate boxes; 4 cents a day, and 1 cents a day, respectively. International would be 20 to 6 cents respectively- not sure if that kind of shipping rate would make it affordable.

There are many types, but I can't find one that's best (altouhg, zinc picolinate has the highest absorption rate).
That works. The Zinc is tiny anyway, so density doesn't matter as much with it.
Because boron is not considered an essential element, there are no specific recommended daily allowances for it.
Hmm, I wonder if it actually helps calcium, or if that's just a thing that got passed around a lot, or is based on one un-repeated study years ago?

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:09 pm

cufflink wrote: Wondering what you folks think of the formulation.
Like Energy said, it's a bit extreme for some of them... but not too bad, with regards to the essentials (it even has you pretty much covered for choline, which is rare).
Of course, no DHA/EPA, but that's not unusual.

Although, it sounds like a big hand full of horse pills every day.

How much is it? From the net, it looks like about $1/day?

That would be hard for me to swallow... figuratively, and literally.


My hope with this formulation is to get retail price under 50 cents a day.


Will need to find a reputable company to make it to order (given a large enough order).

Might need to manufacture in China- it seems like a lot of these supplements components are made in China.

In that case, would need to get an independent lab in the states to do random lot tests on them to make sure they're not adulterated or fake or anything, though. That's expensive.

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Post by cufflink » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:02 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote: How much is it? From the net, it looks like about $1/day?
I wish. It's more like $1.70/day. As I said . . . not cheap.
That would be hard for me to swallow... figuratively, and literally.
They make an Easy Swallow version with smaller pills--just a lot more of 'em. I use the regular version. The 6 pills are kind of horsey, but I'm totally used to them at this point. They urge you to divide them up into 3 sets of 2 (1 vitamin, 1 mineral) and take them 3 times a day. A little inconvenient, but it's become second nature to me.
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
One Moment of the Well of Life to taste--
The Stars are setting, and the Caravan
Draws to the Dawn of Nothing--Oh, make haste!

—Fitzgerald, Rubáiyát, 2nd ed., XLIX

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thebestofenergy
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Post by thebestofenergy » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:07 am

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Yes (what do you mean by pure?)
I mean, not inherently in a medium, or bound in a compound. So the mass is what it is, and there aren't really a bunch of forms of it.
I found this http://www.bulksupplements.com/riboflav ... in-b2.html
Pure B2.
Serving per size: 50 mg
Vitamin B2 (as Riboflavin): 50mg
Other ingredients: none
So yes, it is pure.
brimstoneSalad wrote:What do you think is the biggest supplement size that would be convenient?

I was thinking 5g, but that might not be possible without scaling a couple of the massive components down a bit.

Maybe with a mind more towards just making sure to provide enough of those larger components at two or three a day.

Maybe

275mg Choline (at 20% density) 1375mg
333mg Ca (at 40% density) 833mg
70mg Mg (at about 10% density) 700mg
200mg EPA/DHA (at 40% density) 500mg

One a day is still a pretty good supplement- plenty of the essentials B-12 and D.
Two gives you the full recommended DHA/EPA, and Choline (and enough calcium that it would be hard to be deficient)
And three gives you the full RDI of calcium, and tops you off on the rest above the needed amounts

That would keep the size more reasonable as a bite size kind of thing, about six grams, I think.
Sounds perfect. I personally don't care about the size, nor I've taken many supplements to tell which size is ok.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Hmm, I wonder if it actually helps calcium, or if that's just a thing that got passed around a lot, or is based on one un-repeated study years ago?
You can check it here http://www.algaecal.com/algaecal-ingred ... ne-health/
It doesn't only help calcium, also vitamin D and magnesium:
Boron seems to be essential for healthy bone and joint function, possibly via effects on the balance and absorption of calcium, magnesium and phosphorus. It seems to affect cell membranes and the way signals are transmitted across these membranes.
Boron affects the metabolism of steroid hormones and may also play a role in converting vitamin D to its more active form, thus increasing calcium uptake and deposition into bone. Boron also increases male sex hormone levels.
https://www.nutronix.com/Nutronix/image ... mation.pdf
Boron was first discovered to influence the metabolism of
calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, and vitamin D.
Or you can check this http://www.med.nyu.edu/content?ChunkIID=21616
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:27 pm

cufflink wrote: I wish. It's more like $1.70/day. As I said . . . not cheap.
Ouch!

Yeah, I don't think I could do that. That's like half a modest food budget.

thebestofenergy wrote: Sounds perfect. I personally don't care about the size, nor I've taken many supplements to tell which size is ok.
Ah. Well, consider the optimal size of a candy or after dinner mint maybe?

The Andes mints are around 4.75 grams. They seem like a reasonable size.
Likewise, a grape weighs about 5g. So does a typical piece of extruded twist wrapped bubble gum.

When it's a chewable, I mainly think about:

Can I carry a couple in my pocket easily?
Can I conveniently eat it in one bite and chew easily?
Is it light enough for shipping to be reasonable?

I'm thinking it might make more sense to contract a candy manufacturer, and set up all of the suppliers individually (there might be less room for funny business than in the case of asking a supplement company to get the supplies).
Although they probably do a higher volume of business

The waxy/lipid components should have a relatively low melting point. Xylitol can be melted at 92°C, then cooled to form a thick, sticky substance that will eventually harden somewhat. Once the melted components are liquid and mixed, the solid components could be sifted and mixed in along with any additional emulsifiers or binders as needed.

It would probably have the consistency of a tootsie roll or starburst (which are about 3 gram candies, I think).

I like that article. All the other claims, while knowing no nutritional need has been established, were making me dubious- particularly since most of them are on sites trying to sell supplements.

Possible effects on hormone levels are concerning. It's hard to say if that's good or bad.
Maybe 1 mg, at most? 1/3rd a mg in each?

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Post by thebestofenergy » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:21 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:Possible effects on hormone levels are concerning. It's hard to say if that's good or bad.
Maybe 1 mg, at most? 1/3rd a mg in each?
Since
No dietary or nutritional requirement for boron has been established, and boron deficiency is not known to cause any disease
I think that it'd be perfectly fine to put it low. 1/3rd mg each would be ok.
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