Dealing with anecdotal evidence

[teo123]

OK, here is a debate I got myself into (really, and I guess many of you did too):
Me: You should really stop making that food, I don't want us to get sick.
Mother: Look, those claims about veganism being healthy are simply not true.
Me: Well, how do you know?
Mother: Your grandmother is 92 and she has been eating meat every day. Also, it is tradition to eat meat here, and none of those old people who live here have even heard of veganism until recently.
Me: Well, that's because there are no vegans here to begin with. If there were, they would certainly live a lot longer than the vast majority of the meat-eaters.
Mother: How do you know? Has someone you trust done some study?
Me: Yes, vegans on the Internet present studies to support their claims.
Mother: How can you trust them and not trust me? I am you family and those vegans on the Internet aren't. And as long as you are in my house, you are going to eat meat. If eating meat weren't healthy, it wouldn't be a tradition. I don't want you to get sick like that vegan you showed me that looks as if he had AIDS (that was Gary Yourofsky).
I got shocked into silence by that.

So, how should we deal with anecdotal evidence without sounding stupid and stubborn? That might be a big step toward convincing people to go vegan, so let's discuss it!

[ohokaythen]

You fucked up going "(people).. on the internet said x) It never sounds very convincing
Did you try telling her all she has is anecdotal evidence? That there are many smokers who lived past 100, but would she say that smoking is healthy? I mean it calms your nerves and stuff after all..
Show her the actual studies showing the link between veganism and health/longevity.

"Tradition"
Well people often overestimates how much meat the average peasant could afford to actually ate back in the day.

Anyway, interesting post looking forward to see how this goes down.

[brimstoneSalad]

Show her this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

[Lightningman_42]

Show her this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

Yeah, maybe so, but the scientists who came up with this concensus, through peer-reviewed scientific research, are likely not family members of Teo123, so therefore it must be wrong. Teo123's mother, however, is family, so therefore her anecdotal claim is irrefutable proof of all possible vegan diets being nutritionally inadequate, and should be accepted as fact without being questioned!

All joking aside, I agree that this scientific consensus by the ADA is the single best thing to show nonvegans who espouse the vegan-diets-cannot-be-nutritionally-adequate nonsense.

[Lightningman_42]

How I would have responded if I were you, teo123:

Your grandmother is 92 and she has been eating meat every day.

Anecdote. Only proves that it's possible for at least some people to eat meat and remain healthy. Secondly, the health problems caused by meat/dairy/egg consumption are proportional to the quantity consumed. Thirdly, the issue of whether or not meat/dairy/egg consumption can be healthy is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not it's possible for a vegan diet to be nutritionally adequate.

Also, it is tradition to eat meat here, and none of those old people who live here have even heard of veganism until recently.

Also irrelevant. Whether or not someone has heard of a certain type of diet (and what it entails), does not have an effect on how healthy and adequate it is.

A well-planned vegan diet can, in fact, be nutritionally adequate.

How do you know? Has someone you trust done some study?

Yes. I trust the American Dietetics Association, who've likely done more than just "some" study on the matter, as have many other organizations, like the Mayo Clinic and the Dietitians of Canada. If you're not convinced I'd suggest you see the ADA's stance on well-planned vegan diets.

How can you trust them and not trust me? I am your family and those ADA scientists aren't.

{Sarcastic response}: Yeah you're right. If a family member told you that smoking a full package of cigarettes each day is healthy, then you should trust them. Not the scientific consensus established by nonfamily-scientists who've actually studied the health effects of smoking.

...and as long as you are in my house, you are going to eat meat. If eating meat weren't healthy, it wouldn't be a tradition.

{Another sarcastic response}: Good point, if inhaling smoke were in any way unhealthy, then it wouldn't have been accepted as a tradition by anyone, ever, anywhere in the world. If slavery, FGM, and violent punishment of heretics (by Christians, Muslims, or any other powerful religon) were not ethical, then they would not ever have been embraced by any dominant cultures anywhere in the world. For something to become established as a tradition is irrefutable proof that it's healthy & ethical.

I don't want you to get sick like that vegan you showed me that looks as if he had AIDS.

You mean Gary Yourofsky, because he's pale, bald, and thin? So what? A lot of white nonvegans are that pale as well, or even more so. Baldness is hereditary. He exercises a lot and doesn't consume much saturated fat, so no surprise that he's not fat. Even if he did have AIDS, that would be irrelevant because he couldn't have gotten AIDS by becoming a vegan. Vegan diets don't cause AIDS. Did a family member tell you that they do?

Anyways, nice chat Mom. I hope it's obvious to you now how many of your claims about vegan diets were true, or even relevant for that matter.

[teo123]

Show her this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

You should't have bothered to find this. She doesn't speak English. She speaks only Croatian (or at least pretends to).