UNNATURAL VEGAN vs THINKABOUTTHIS

[knot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YicFfv6fkKU

Normally I think this guy is on the money, but his argument here seems bad/weird: "veganism is about avoiding the unnecessary use of animals". Wtf?

What do you think?

[garrethdsouza]

Speaking of unnatural vegan. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-HNIinfEUnQ1FE9hvLDOX1rwMRGYIiYu&v=IA4MzsgWi0ccc

[miniboes]

These arguments sound exactly like Gary Francione.
Francione is a woo.

I also dislike everything about the editing and production quality of the video.
It's a guy screaming at a camera with bad arguments.

[Lightningman_42]

So I only recently came across ThinkAboutThis, and saw 2 of his videos criticizing The Not-so-Amazing Intellectually-Dishonest-Idiot Atheist. While I found his manner of speaking to be mildly annoying, I thought that most of his criticisms were spot on and so I considered watching more of his content.

Yesterday I came across his recent video criticizing Unnatural Vegan, and was blown away by how terrible it was. Most of his arguments were deontological Gary Francionish all-use-is-abuse nonsense. What is being said is more important than how it's being said, but it didn't help that his manner of speaking and edited video effects were both obnoxious.

I don't get why deontology is so popular amongst vegans (particularly describing actions as being inherently wrong, rather than often wrong, but sometimes not, depending on the consequences). Admitting that some forms of animal use can be ethical does not undermine a movement to end specific uses of animals that are inherently prone to abuse (since it is the abuse that matters, and most animal use for food and clothing are abusive, but this doesn't mean that all use is abuse).

To his credit, ThinkAboutThis did present some valid criticisms of Unnatural Vegan (which is certainly possible; she's made plenty of stupid comments in the past) in this video, but they were still presented in an obnoxious manner and were outnumbered by his bad arguments.

I found the comments under his video disturbing. Most were "yes-manning" each other and using ad-hominems against vegans who defended unnatural vegan. So many vegans seem to misunderstand and hate Unnatural Vegan, likely because she plays an unusual, yet useful role within the vegan movement: criticizing it's useless and irrational aspects.

Are you all disturbed by the lack of critical thinking skills sometimes displayed by vegans?

[miniboes]

Are you all disturbed by the lack of critical thinking skills sometimes displayed by vegans?

“There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view I hold dear.”
Dan Dennett

[knot]

It seems like people are too pissed off at Unnatural Vegan for whatever reason, so they end up not paying any attention to the arguments he's actually making. He did have a few valid points, but I think his main idea is wrong

The Raw Till 4 or 80/10/10 crowd seem like an angry religious mob, lol

I didnt know that kind of dogmatism really existed in the vegan movement

[brimstoneSalad]

Maybe somebody can invite him here to discuss this.

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

It seems like people are too pissed off at Unnatural Vegan for whatever reason, so they end up not paying any attention to the arguments he's actually making. He did have a few valid points, but I think his main idea is wrong

The Raw Till 4 or 80/10/10 crowd seem like an angry religious mob, lol

I didnt know that kind of dogmatism really existed in the vegan movement

I asked about UV on Reddit, and I was accused of BEING her and accused of starting shit for the purpose of page views. I was told that UV was a carnist-lover who hates vegans, and that she was a bad person because she altered her opinion in the light of new evidence. I read critiques that she also doesn't wan to make carnists feel bad, and doesn't do enough meat-eater bashing.

"A combo of unintelligent, ignorant and contrarian. She gets almost everything wrong. She wrongly defined speciesm, can't read scientific studies properly, spends her time arguing against vegans. The only video I think she got right was when she said Harley adding sugar to whole foods isn't as bad as sugar in fatty processed foods.
I wouldn't be surprised if she's a meat industry plant or at least non-vegan off camera."

"I think she's awful. She has nothing positive to say about veganism, she spends most of her time attacking other vegans. I subscribed to her awhile ago, but then when I realized what her MO was I quickly unsubbed. Easily one of the biggest meat industry shill fake vegans on Youtube."

"She likes to create controversy by cherry-picking studies to create contrarian videos to well known facts within the vegan community. She called Michael Greger biased in one video and quoted him as a legitimate source in another video. She tries to silence any form of vegan activism, especially of those who have been way more effective than her. Her form of activism, if you can even call her passive shitty videos that, is ineffective, as it makes non-vegans comfortable with their choices.
Oh no, god help she makes a non-vegan feel uncomfortable. That would be so much worse than killing animals for pleasure and destroying the Earth! Wah wah
What I think of her? I think she's a pseudo-intellectual, insecure, pathetic bitch. I don't think she's a non-vegan, as many claim, but she needs to work out her issues instead of making videos to stroke her own ego, and do something productive for once."

The most hate directed at her seems to be mostly due to her most popular videos, such as the one showing that she got fat on the "all-you-can-eat" fruititarian diet, her telling a few Vegan Youtubers that they need to eat more lysine in their diets due to what the evidence pointed to (apparently following guidelines is a bad thing because... fuck you I'm vegan!)

The main arguments come from Happy Healthy Vegan cocksuckers and Vegan Gains Fanatics who are more cult-like than helpful in the movement, and enraged because Unnatural Vegan said they were wrong and pointed to evidence from scientific studies and quotes from vegan dietitions. Just look at the ratings and comments of TheVeganAtheist's video on Vegan Gains to find out how many of the fans act.

Unnatural Vegan isn't your average vegan, she calls out incorrect vegan BS, therefore she is committing an act of blasphemy against the kale god, therefore she is an awful person. Any member of any group, especially social justice groups, that call out bad members and arguments is suddenly Public Enemy No. 1.

[Archtype]

He did have a few valid points, but I think his main idea is wrong

His main flaw is that it seemed he was alluding to deontology - that taking an animal out of it's natural habitat is wrong. It also slightly came across to me that he'd manifested a strawman with "merely for the resources they can provide", as in the clip UV made no mention of it taken 'merely' for resources; not to mention the point UV presented was of a purely ethical stance.

The Raw Till 4 or 80/10/10 crowd seem like an angry religious mob, lol

I don't think he genuinely follows a RT4 or 80/10/10 diet. Judging by one of his earlier "what I eats", he was satirising by eating 4 pizzas for lunch.

I didnt know that kind of dogmatism really existed in the vegan movement

Then you haven't been around on YouTube at all lately, particularly in Vegan Gains' or Freelee's comments. I'd also like to note that this 'dogmatism' can occur within branches of pretty much every social justice movement, such as third-wave feminists who do things such as set off fire alarms to disrupt meetings.

[brimstoneSalad]

His main flaw is that it seemed he was alluding to deontology

Yes, we've been discussing that on the forum.

Here's a newer thread: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... f=7&t=1869

It's a controversial issue for a vegan youtuber to bring up, but maybe he'll make a video questioning deontology some day.