What Are Your Thoughts on Intersectional Veganism?

Vegan message board for support on vegan related issues and questions.
Topics include philosophy, activism, effective altruism, plant-based nutrition, and diet advice/discussion whether high carb, low carb (eco atkins/vegan keto) or anything in between.
Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome, but please keep it within debate topics.
Post Reply
User avatar
ThatNerdyScienceGirl
Full Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:46 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegetarian

What Are Your Thoughts on Intersectional Veganism?

Post by ThatNerdyScienceGirl » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:25 pm

Or otherwise known as Veganism Plus? It's this odd belief that we need to combine the fight against animal suffering with other movements such as Feminism, and Black Lives Matter, because... reasons.

It mainly is based on the racist belief that minorities can't be Vegan because Minorities are all poor, therefore most vegans are white, because... white supremacy somehow. Mostly this includes false beliefs that the First World Country of America and Europe operate under some weird invisible caste system, and therefore all members of a certain group are seen as bad, and oppressive to all members of a different group (Women are only oppressed by men, gays are only oppressed by heterosexuals, etc)

Or in another way:
“…All forms of oppression and, in turn, the struggles against them, are intimately connected. The subjugation of the earth, it’s non-human animal inhabitants, and the people that are not members of the wealthy white male elite are not unrelated phenomena. Each of these, among the many other injustices that must be confronted, is a product of the white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist culture that dominates the planet.”
-from BecauseWeMust‘s mission statement
Fight the "white cishet male" Bourgeoisie, instead of focusing on people actually causing harm: People who use and sell animal products.

But what do you think of this? Are all injustices inter-related? Or is veganism and the fight for a global reduction in the suffering of animals unrelated to "the wealthy white male elite" (Everyone of all races, genders, sexual orientations, classes, species, and even people of all abilities harm animals, )

Am I wrong for being anti-Intersectional Veganism?

knot
Master in Training
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:34 pm

Post by knot » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:31 pm

ThatNerdyScienceGirl wrote: Am I wrong for being anti-Intersectional Veganism?
No

I think it's a good idea to stay out of all the identity politics craziness, and just stick to classical egalitarianism. Movements like #blacklivesmatter or 3rd wave feminism also tend to be based on feelings rather than facts, and they often seem to be very openly racist/sexist.

User avatar
Volenta
Master in Training
Posts: 696
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:13 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Post by Volenta » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:28 pm

I don't particularly like the rhetoric that you described some intersectionalists are using. Nonetheless, I probably would agree with and support much of their struggles for more equality. In essence that is, because I don't fully agree with some explanations/versions of egalitarianism either. Mainstream egalitarians state that all humans are equal, which is just flat-out wrong and most of the time speciesist (if it weren't speciesist, you would have to argue insects are equal to humans, which is just insane). Basically, I'm in the camp of giving equal consideration to similar interests, which recognizes that interests might actually differ, even among humans. If that is what is meant by equality, I apply it across the board (race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, and so on). If this is a definition of equality that is accepted by intersectionalists, I would also consider myself to be one, but I haven't read enough about it to know whether this is the case.

User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 9385
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Post by brimstoneSalad » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:50 pm

ThatNerdyScienceGirl wrote: Am I wrong for being anti-Intersectional Veganism?
Not at all. It's the same problem Atheism plus faced; the attempt to hijack a movement that focuses on one aspect of morality, and make it political/try to make it inclusive of everything (to a fault).

People don't all agree on every issue, and for good reason sometimes. The best way to inspire cooperation is to focus on commonalities, rather than being divisive because of disagreements on other issues.

I'm glad to cooperate with Christian Vegans too, on animal welfare issues, and I'm glad they exist to show that there are religious perspectives people can have as well if they want to (assuming they're religious). I don't agree with them, but it's possible to work with them on things, and I'm not going to say they aren't vegan.

Unnatural vegan went into the inherent dichotomy a bit between speciesism and ableism here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fePeFVNohM

And then a bunch of social justice warrior youtubers exploded at her.

Speciesist veganism, Christian (Muslism, etc.) veganism, and Rational Consequentialist veganism: We can all work together on common goals while disagreeing on finer points.

The only vegans I'll fight with are the deontologists, because they're extremists and they have a tendency to make veganism look bad and irrational to the public, and confuse people on matters of secular ethics by making a false claim to it (This is why it's easier to get along with Christian vegans, since they're not making inherent claims to any rationally derived moral belief, and people understand that it's a religious perspective -- no false advertising involved).

blackbeanfanatic
Newbie
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:42 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Post by blackbeanfanatic » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:54 am

Well, I think its fucking stupid social-collectivist crap! That's my reflected and balanced view ;D

User avatar
garrethdsouza
Senior Member
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:47 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: India

Post by garrethdsouza » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:53 pm

ThatNerdyScienceGirl wrote:
Am I wrong for being anti-Intersectional Veganism?
To a degree yes you are being wrong about it.

Intersectionality is about how different people/groups often have different hurdles to face because of multiple intersecting oppressions/disadvantages merely for being within a particular group.
The way it is described in the quote is pathetic and a pretty obvious strawperson. I'm wondering if it was intentionally misrepresented:
“…All forms of oppression and, in turn, the struggles against them, are intimately connected. The subjugation of the earth, it’s non-human animal inhabitants, and the people that are not members of the wealthy white male elite are not unrelated phenomena. Each of these, among the many other injustices that must be confronted, is a product of the white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist culture that dominates the planet.”
-from BecauseWeMust‘s mission statement
It has nothing to do with painting all members of a group as bad either, that's also an asinine strawperson.

Veganism is a worldwide issue and of course not everything is interlinked somehow to the white man, (nor is it completely unrelated to racism locally, that's a false dichotomy). That's obvious and that's not what intersectionality is about which is what I tried to explain earlier.

Different groups do have different difficulties. Where I am from (India), many of the poor have been systemically deprived as a result of casteism and many lower castes do not have access to other sources of food that upper castes do, and are hence dependent on cheap meat often from dead animals (as opposed to killed ones) for basic nutrition. Many other groups around the world have similar issues of a lack of access. There are many farmers who don't have access to mechanised agriculture and have to be dependent on draught animals for ploughing fields.

So for people with a lot of feasible options for being vegan to go around deeming all others many of whom don't have alternatives as murderers/inherently bad people/the problem is quite horrible behaviour that stems from such privilege blindness based on misconceptions that all people are equally capable of going vegan.

It's also the case in developed nations where there are places called food deserts. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6rL0N6-gqXM

So basically seeing things in black or white rather than the graded nuances and not recognising people's difficulties in going vegan is bad for the oppressed/disadvantaged, the movement and ultimately the animals suffering as well which is what being intersectional aims to counter: recognising these differences and trying to figure out solutions rather than dismissing the differences and winding up achieving nothing constructive - the oblivionist approach to animal rights.
“We are the cosmos made conscious and life is the means by which the universe understands itself.”

― Brian Cox

User avatar
garrethdsouza
Senior Member
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:47 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: India

Post by garrethdsouza » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:04 pm

.?&&
Last edited by garrethdsouza on Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“We are the cosmos made conscious and life is the means by which the universe understands itself.”

― Brian Cox

User avatar
garrethdsouza
Senior Member
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 4:47 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: India

Post by garrethdsouza » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:05 pm

knot wrote:
I think it's a good idea to stay out of all the identity politics craziness, and just stick to classical egalitarianism. Movements like #blacklivesmatter or 3rd wave feminism also tend to be based on feelings rather than facts, and they often seem to be very openly racist/sexist.

It's really unfortunate how easily people who keep rationalism as the basis of their belief system have bought in to the mass confusionism/denialism thats reminiscent of "the coconut oil/saturated fat is good for you " confusionism.

Yes we get it that many if not most people want everyone to be equal and hence the term egalitarian. Yet specific movements exist focusing on particular issues, similar to how separate subjects exist in schools. Compartmentalisation/ specialisation is important else you'd have a mess of different topics being discussed at the same time/space. That's why within the egalitarian concept you have separate movements. Noone goes ahead and suggests we shouldn't be called lgbt rights activists and be called egalitarians because all sexualities are equal. Yet they fail to understand that it's a similar case for feminism or black lives matter. Noones saying identifying as one (eg lgbt activist, feminist) means you're opposed to the other (heterosexuality, men) and the constant blatant strawpersoning that the respective movements are majorly about the latter rather than the former is a very big part of the confusionism method.

And the problem is that movements (eg atheism, veganism) suffer as a result of lack of recognising the issues different people face within a movement (the rabid anti feminism in the atheist movement as a result in part of thunderf00t fiasco, some responses to the black lives matter movement among clueless vegans http://aphro-ism.com/2015/08/19/weareal ... ck-vegans/ as examples.) The suggestion that feminism/black lives matter movements are sexist/racist is absolutely asinine.
“We are the cosmos made conscious and life is the means by which the universe understands itself.”

― Brian Cox

User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 9385
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:29 pm

garrethdsouza wrote: So for people with a lot of feasible options for being vegan to go around deeming all others many of whom don't have alternatives as murderers/inherently bad people/the problem is quite horrible behaviour that stems from such privilege blindness based on misconceptions that all people are equally capable of going vegan.
The definition of vegan includes possible and practical. Considering that some people in third world countries don't have the option is just normal veganism, not "intersectional veganism".
garrethdsouza wrote:It's also the case in developed nations where there are places called food deserts. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6rL0N6-gqXM
That's a myth. You can get vegan food in a "food desert". Canned beans, bread, and tortillas are VERY widely available across the South where food deserts are most common, as is peanut butter and orange juice.

Things like nuts and beans, and supplements, can also be ordered online at reasonable costs, and delivered to your door.

It's a matter of ignorance that people don't know how to eat vegan without a whole foods nearby.

It's harder to find green veggies, but that's an issue of optimal nutrition, and not of just being vegan. Achieving adequate nutrition with limited means is an education issue.
garrethdsouza wrote:Yet specific movements exist focusing on particular issues, similar to how separate subjects exist in schools.
This is excellent rhetoric, but it's not at all accurate.

When groups have competing interests, giving one group rights means taking away from the other. There's no clear outcome where "everybody wins" in most of these cases, particularly for Feminism and MRM.
garrethdsouza wrote:Noones saying identifying as one (eg lgbt activist, feminist) means you're opposed to the other (heterosexuality, men)
Most people aren't saying that because they don't understand feminism, or politics.

Feminism is inherently opposed to men's rights, which is both necessary and appropriate. I don't criticize that fact, but celebrate it, because we need both perspectives, and we need an adversarial system (it's like in court, where there is a defense and prosecution, or a two party political system).
Due to biological differences, particularly with regard to child bearing, there is no such thing as equal rights on some of these topics.

garrethdsouza wrote:the constant blatant strawpersoning that the respective movements are majorly about the latter rather than the former is a very big part of the confusionism method.
I don't think you're deliberately trying to strawman anybody, but by misunderstanding the issue and explaining it incorrectly, you're inadvertently contributing to the confusionism.

Equality is great, but it's not always possible. You have to also consider what that means in practice.

Of course feminism is sexist -- it considers the interests of one sex above another. Of course it's against men's rights (particularly where they conflict with women's). And that's OK. That's how it's supposed to be. If it were otherwise, it would no longer be effective. Feminism is advocacy for women. MRM is advocacy for men. They meet somewhere in the middle on the field of the battle of ideas, and ultimately come to some kind of balance or compromise -- or that's how it should work.

It's counterproductive confusionist rhetoric to criticize the rights movement of a gender for being sexist, whether that's people criticizing feminism or MRM.

But the bottom line is that intersectionality on these issues is impossible without making veganism itself sexist, and that is NOT appropriate. Because Feminism and MRM can not intersect, Veganism can not take a side and can not intersect with either of them, or else it must inherently oppose the other, which would be wrong and not what veganism is about.
Veganism needs to stay neutral on these other battles, and just be what it is: about the ethics of consumption of products harmful to animals.

User avatar
ThatNerdyScienceGirl
Full Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:46 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegetarian

Post by ThatNerdyScienceGirl » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:40 pm

I made a post on Tumblr a little bit ago refuting the "food desert" argument against eating healthy. Food deserts exist mainly in the west. This is consistent with population density maps showing that the west has a much lower population than the east, so of course there is going to be less supermarkets.

Food insecurity is mainly a southern problem, there is no link between food deserts and food scarcity. There IS a link between food deserts and obesity, as the east has a higher rate of obesity.

Besides, what IS a food desert? I heard that a food desert is defined as not having a large supermarket within 1 mile distance from your house. I have a Food4Less 1.2 miles from my house, and a StrackVanTil 2 miles from my house, so according to this idiocy, I am in a food desert. I grew up in one of these "food deserts" where we would go shopping by walking over a mile to the dollar store. Granted there was a mexican supermarket in the area, but Asian and Hispanic food marts are not considered when it comes to food deserts.

But in Dollar General, there is pasta, pasta sauce, beans, rice, wheat bread, peanut butter, nuts, seeds, peanut butter, canned vegetables and fruits, etc. There are plenty of vegan options to choose from even in a dollar store, or a gas station, as Bite Sized Vegan, a popular vegan youtuber, was able to show.

I lived just a few months ago a mile to two from a Dollar General, a Family Dollar, A Hispanic food mart, and an Asian food mart, but since none of them are Kroger, Winn Dixie, or Walmart, I was said to be living in a food desert.

It's not hard to be vegan just shopping at these stores. But you know what? You have even LESS of an excuse, as you can purchase specialty items and even fresh fruit and veggies to be delivered straight to your door. The Produce Box delivers fresh veggies and fruit to your door for less than 30$ a week for a huge family of 4.

And if THAT doesn't do it for you, Walmart, Amazon, Target, and many other online stores will allow you to purchase food and have them shipped by mail, directly to your home.

So "oh woe is me, I live 1 mile from the nearest Walmart so I can't be vegan" is a load of poo.

Yes, I understand if veganism is not that important to you if you are literally getting food assistance like I did growing up, where you don't have the privilege to pick and choose the foods that you are willing to eat. But food deserts? Find a better excuse than that shoddy "boohoo, woe is me" poppycock
Nerdy Girl talks about health and nutrition: http://thatnerdysciencegirl.com/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests