Former Impressions On Veganism

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Jaywalker
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by Jaywalker »

I can't remember what I thought of veganism, I became vegan very soon after someone told me about it. I just remember saying: "I understand not eating meat but why not dairy?" I also remember the moment I quit meat. I was eating a hamburger. "This is the last time I eat meat" I said.

Nothing else comes to mind. Weird.
Minos
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by Minos »

My impressions were, that vegans are always too thin, have no muscles and bones showing and can eat only fruit and vegetables. It was quick conclusion based on only two vegans i met back in that days (didn't even talk to them) and it stick for ten years. Then my SO became vegan and shortly after that I became one too (after some research on the topic). Because of that, I'm very driven to look healthy and strong and promote Vegan fighters.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by PsYcHo »

I haven't made the full switch myself, but I haven't eaten anything whose mother would miss it for quite a while now. I used to think vegetarians were just silly, and Vegans were full on insane, and a couple of people I saw on youtube seemed to reinforce this. Then I stumbled on TVA, and the Unnatural Vegan and began to really think about it. Now that I look back it seems more insane to hold such a negative opinion of people that are ethical not because of an invisible man in the sky, but because it is the right thing to do. (I think someone needs to make a Vegan fast-food franchise so it is easier for people to grab a quick meal. I can be ethical and lazy, right?)
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Sapphire Lightning
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by Sapphire Lightning »

I used to think it was extreme, but otherwise harmless. I only knew a few vegans when I was younger (early twenties). When I was a teenager, the story was very different. I would often mock the few vegetarians in class and say stupid things like "how do you know carrots don't feel pain?" and other silly and baseless comments. I wish I had "woken up" sooner, I keep kicking myself and find it hard to believe I used to be a carnist...
Seachants
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by Seachants »

I think this is a great topic. If we can have empathy and perspective-taking for where we ourselves used to be, this might help us influence people who are now where we used to be. For a long time, I had no thoughts or feelings about veganism whatsoever, not knowing any vegans and having no reasons to consider it. I've met many people who are like that, having an innocent kind of ignorance. I relate to becoming a fan of vegetarianism first while being against veganism. Most of my former impressions were based on experiences with my taste buds and social life, though going vegan was based on research.

I started out by having a slightly bad impression of vegetarianism, based on one bad-tasting veggie burger I ate in undergrad and one socially impaired vegetarian I dated. I think it's important that if we offer mock meats, mock cheeses, or other "transition" foods to non-vegans, make sure it's the best-tasting we know, because it may be the first time for them, and first impressions last. Even though it's illogical to over-generalize from an instance of one, people do it with taste aversion. To this day, I have not tried another generic-looking veggie burger similar to the one I had. I also had the misimpression that all vegetarians eat mock meats to survive, so I had no desire to stop eating meat.

Then a vegetarian interrogated and criticized my choice of eating meat on a first date. Just as I brought the fork with a piece of chicken to my mouth, that's when the questions started. "Connection before correction" I once read, and I related to it. Try to establish great rapport before correcting someone's behavior. He asked why I ate meat. "Why" questions may be getting at the reasons for something, but "reason" can be interpreted in many ways. One is a cause (e.g., the reason why the sun appears to rise), another is an intention/purpose/goal, and still another is a logical argument or the process of forming logical arguments and acting accordingly. I answered based on the first meaning and looked to my history of learning, saying that it's what my family always ate and that I had always eaten meat. It might have seemed like an appeal to tradition, but I interpreted the question as merely asking about "causes," whereas he tried to debate reasons with another meaning entirely. He said, "I've heard a lot of bad reasons for eating meat, and yours is the worst." I got tired of him trying to debate me without considering topics all the way around or without recognizing semantic ambiguity that can hinder clear communication, and I stopped talking to him. Before that though, he stopped trying to overtly convert me and started covert tactics, like by making us a veg picnic. I liked the food but sensed his conversion attempts, as if he were a religionist trying to convert me. I was open to vegetarianism in principle but had no reason for it that appealed to my taste buds and social life. Why go veg if the only other veg person I knew would be some annoying guy? It was also a bit of spite that prevented me from going vegetarian, because I was averse to the lack of empathy and perspective-taking in his conversion project.

I thought vegetarianism was a great idea, considering that it reduces unnecessary killing. I thought that in a perfect world, all life forms would photosynthesize, so that no life would have to kill life in order to sustain life, but I accepted that some life forms are biologically determined to kill other life forms in order to survive. I thought humans were biologically determined omnivores (when defined as animals that must eat both meat and plants to survive), rather that culturally conditioned omnivores. After getting to know many vegetarians, I thought about cultures with more vegetarians than in the U.S., and I realized that they weren't all malnourished and unable to survive. I still didn't stop eating meat, considering that I didn't think there were tasty alternatives. Only after dating a vegetarian who had regular potlucks (without any mock meats) did I realize how tasty and satiating vegetarian food could be. I hadn't looked up any slaughter-house videos or information on health and the environment, but I became vegetarian based on the idea that it's more ethical, that it can be tasty and satiating, and that I could have enjoyable social experiences with an abundant variety of vegetarians who lived in my area.

My thoughts against veganism started with the first vegan I met, who seemed low-energy (not making it up), and his personality was dull to me, and worse, he wanted to raise children vegan. It sounded very isolating, like how a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon might keep their children isolated from alternative beliefs and practices. I asked what he'd do if his children had friends who were non-vegan. Would he be okay with them eating non-vegan foods when he's not around? He said he'd tell the friends' parents not to give them non-vegan foods/drinks, as if policing not only his kids but their friends' parents too. That's the moment I thought the vegan lifestyle was too isolating from the outside world. Like how Jehovah's Witness kids can't celebrate Halloween, I thought vegan kids couldn't go trick or treating, because they have to stay away from milk chocolate or wouldn't know the ingredients. He said that he reads all the ingredients for everything he buys, which sounded obsessive-compulsive, and I thought shopping would be no fun as a vegan.

That first vegan had a sort of a "thou shalt"/"thou shalt not" personality (I later found he was very into Francione's deonotology), and I never had the impression that I wanted to go vegan when I knew him. He did explain the treatment of bees that got me questioning whether to eat honey. I was vegetarian and held onto the myth that eating dairy and eggs are harmless. He didn't explain the systemic factors in the meat-dairy and meat-egg industries. Veganism instead of vegetarianism seemed groundless to me, as if we should stay away from eating anything that came from an animal just because it came from an animal. (I also still thought of veganism as only a diet.) I came to think that vegetarianism is better than veganism, based on the social inclusiveness/social isolation comparison. In addition, I didn't like that he put down some people as "fake vegetarians," which he defined as people who sometimes eat meat. I felt that small steps in the right direction are better than no steps in that direction and that if their reason for going mostly vegetarian is minimize unnecessary killing, then they're acting with integrity if they're at least reducing their consumption of meat. I felt that he was too judgmental without empathy or perspective-taking toward non-veg people, whereas all but one of the vegetarians I had met were friendly and accepting of everyone's diet.

The second vegan I met was a lady at a party who also led me to think that vegans are downbeat, standoffish, low energy, dull people. I learned in advance that she had the same profession as me, the same "personality type" as me, and that she was vegan. Someone showed me a vegan info-graphic she had posted on Facebook, and I said that she sounds awesome. I was still hopeful that I could relate to a vegan. I was disappointed that she was standoffish, barely talked and no spark of life about her, showing no enthusiasm or interest when I said that I heard the above pieces of info about her and had been looking forward to meeting her. I had no desire to get to know any more vegans. I was curious about why someone would go vegan, but they were too socially off-putting for me to look into it. I also wondered if one reason she didn't talk much is that I said I was vegetarian, possibly thinking that I was "just" vegetarian.

My former impressions of veganism were formed more by the people I met than any ideas or facts behind it. I think that's why we have to accept that we may be the only vegan someone knows, so we become a representative for the whole class of people, in that person's eyes.
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Eqeuls
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by Eqeuls »

Then a vegetarian interrogated and criticized my choice of eating meat

Now I wonder, did you know this guy was a vegeterian when you accepted the first date "offer"? I'm just curious, because you stated you were interested in vegeterianism. From a vegan perspective - a first date with dinner is usually a bit.. tricky.

And despite him being such an annoying personality, you kept meeting and dating him?
It sounded very isolating, like how a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon might keep their children isolated from alternative beliefs and practices
Amen. I've always held the same impressions towards those very obsessive vegans.
I was disappointed that she was standoffish, barely talked and no spark of life about her, showing no enthusiasm or interest
Mhm. Many vegans I've met only opened up when the talking point was about animal issues or diets ect.

My former impressions of veganism were formed more by the people I met than any ideas or facts behind it. I think that's why we have to accept that we may be the only vegan someone knows, so we become a representative for the whole class of people, in that person's eyes.
And thus we should try to make the best impression we can. Thanks for sharing your story
Seachants
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Re: Former Impressions On Veganism

Post by Seachants »

Eqeuls wrote:
Then a vegetarian interrogated and criticized my choice of eating meat

Now I wonder, did you know this guy was a vegeterian when you accepted the first date "offer"? I'm just curious, because you stated you were interested in vegeterianism.


Yes. I was open to vegetarianism, though not exactly interested in it. I make a distinction, where being open to something just means that you're willing to consider it or do it when presented with the opportunity, but you're not seeking those opportunities. Being interested means that you are seeking those opportunities. One is more passive; the other is more active. It's like if someone asks what my interests are, I don't answer by saying what I am merely open to. I had no intention of going vegetarian, though was open to the possibility. I considered it a matter of integrity that if you think you need to eat meat, then you should eat it and not pretend to want to abstain from it in the presence of a veg*n merely to show respect for the person or to avoid offending him or her. If I were to abstain from meat, it would have to be because I thought it was the right thing to do, not just to appease another person. His approach killed my openness to it for the short time that I knew him.
Eqeuls wrote:From a vegan perspective - a first date with dinner is usually a bit.. tricky.


Yes, I agree. The same might be true for vegetarians, but vegetarians are more likely than vegans to not care if other people are vegetarian too.

I saw that vegetarian only about four times, and the moment I realized that the class of behaviors he engaged in that I found annoying wasn't going to go away without considerable social training on my part (I joked about how I could teach him perspective-taking just like teaching it to clients) was the moment I decided to cease contact. I think I could understand his frustration about not being able to convert me though. He was new to ethical vegetarianism, so I could understand the desire to proselytize.

It's similar to having any new passion that you want to talk about all the time. I think the better answer to sharing that passion is to FIRST find others who already have it, too. That way, you are less likely to be heavy-handed and frustrated trying to get others to share it with you. If you don't know anyone else who shares it, then first express it only with close friends, close family members or a partner you already have. When I was newly vegan, I talked about it for hours with people I was closest to and succeeded in influencing my mom to go vegan. Someone on a first date, on the other hand, would not be the best choice to try to convert.
Eqeuls wrote:
It sounded very isolating, like how a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon might keep their children isolated from alternative beliefs and practices
Amen. I've always held the same impressions towards those very obsessive vegans.
Yeah, forcing kids to believe in and practice veganism is almost as bad as forcing them to believe in and practice a religion. The big difference is that veganism is healthy and benefits everyone and might even be necessary to save our planet. However, I don't think forcing it on people is the way to go. And plenty of religious people also sincerely believe that their religion is healthy and benefits everyone and might even be necessary to save our planet. So how is a child supposed to distinguish between the two? Or a friend? Or a date? The act of forcing is the same, and I think a lot of people react against it, even if it's for their benefit and the benefit of the planet. I think that giving them choices is very important. If I were to raise children vegan, then as early as I think they could comprehend, I'd present the best arguments for both sides, and inevitably, I think they would see that the best arguments for carnism are very weak and would make their own choice to remain vegan. That's how my mom approached religion for me, starting out with secularism, but when I asked about religious topics, she gave the best answers she knew, and when I wanted to go to church (just out of curiosity), she took me there. I decided what to believe and practice on my own. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that vegans should take their children to a steakhouse and let them eat meat just out of curiosity, but policing veganism isn't any better. The same can be said of policing carnism.

Unfortunately, I think my early impression about how isolating veganism can be is correct for myself. I became very exclusive about who I wanted to dine with. As a vegetarian, I still attended parties where people were serving dead animals. But fresh into veganism, I saw a work party advertised with a picture of a dead chicken and I was immediately repelled. There was no way I was going to attend that, and I didn't. I don't want to be present at an event where people are doing things I consider unethical; it just makes me feel uncomfortable knowing I'm probably the only one who considers it unethical and being surrounded by blissfully ignorant people or worse, ex-vegetarians who just stopped caring.
Eqeuls wrote:
I was disappointed that she was standoffish, barely talked and no spark of life about her, showing no enthusiasm or interest
Mhm. Many vegans I've met only opened up when the talking point was about animal issues or diets ect.
I guess they're the kernel of truth in the stereotype that vegans always tell you they're vegan. Maybe they're outspoken people in general who don't feel a need to avoid conflict. I'm usually reserved among "normal" people about being vegan and only mention I'm vegan if someone indicates openness, interest, or support for it. That's because a few times when I merely stated that I was vegan, I was taken aback by the sudden antagonism from some people at the mere mention. The first time, it was just decline an offer for coffee with cream (being completely and innocently in the dark about how people would respond), and a lady said, "Do you know how you can tell if someone is vegan?" I said, "No." She said, "They tell you. THEY ALWAYS TELL YOU." Then she went on about how her sister, who works with PETA, thinks everyone should be vegan, and she gave me unsolicited nutrition advice. I didn't know the "memes" against veganism then. I wondered what I had gotten myself into by joining the club and stayed cautious about it with strangers. I found out an acquaintance/friend I had for years was vegan. He only let me know after I told him I was. There may be just as many silent ones as the outspoken ones, but we don't know it.
Eqeuls wrote:And thus we should try to make the best impression we can.
I agree! When I was still a carnist, the vegetarians (with the exception of that one) were more upbeat than the vegans I met and seemed to enjoy life more. Probably the reason it was so easy to become vegetarian is the positively reinforcing consequences from vegetarians who never tried to criticize or convert or put me on the spot for being one of the few non-veg people in the group. I got from them a focus on what TO DO rather than what NOT to do, and how enjoyable the alternative to carnism can be, rather than on how terrible carnism is. Making the transition to veganism did require delving into darker topics that were depressing, but within a week of learning the horrors of animal agriculture, I focused on what to do to be a healthy vegan. After a screening of "Speciesism: The Movie," the filmmaker said that the best way to advocate for veganism is to be joyful, so that people will want to copy our model.
Eqeuls wrote:Thanks for sharing your story
You're welcome. What are your former impressions of veganism when you were just making the transition or when you were newly vegan? Did you still have any stereotypes or myths that made you hesitant to fully become vegan? I think most people answered the OP's question based on when they were far from that transition. It might also be interesting to hear how even our impressions as new vegans were different from the ones we developed later.
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