Olive oil, cooking oil: Yea or nay?

[cufflink]

In the "starter kit" provided to us by our vegan mentor were several books and DVDs by this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAkEYcmCCCk

As some of you may know, Rip Esselstyn promotes what he calls a "plant strong" diet, which I'd characterize as Vegan with a Vengeance: He goes beyond veganism as I understand it to say you should also avoid all refined foods, including refined oils. His "Engine 2 Diet" is explained here:

http://engine2diet.com

For me this is a step too far. I'm already giving up meat and fish and seafood and dairy and eggs and honey. Please don't ask me to also give up oil! As far as I can tell, no animals are harmed in the production of olive or other oils, and I'm not convinced they're as terrible for health as Rip seems to think. I want to be able to continue to enjoy the de facto vegan dishes I've always loved that call for oil.

How do you folks feel about this?

[brimstoneSalad]

I'm not on board with the extreme diets. As long as it's well healthier than average, I'm OK with it.

Olive oil for cooking- yes.

Olive oil should be used for any medium to high heat cooking applications. If it's getting hotter than boiling point, and it's being exposed to air, then olive oil is the oil of choice- the monounsaturated fatty acids don't oxidize as quickly.

If you're cooking at lower heat and/or there's not much exposure to air, use canola oil. Canola oil has a better PUFA ratio than olive oil- more Omega 3- but it oxidizes easily, so it should never be used for frying, or applications like that. Fine for baking bread, cookies, cakes, etc. or adding to your dishes after you'e turned the heat off on the stove.

I can't really recommend any other oils to cook with.

Sesame oil should be used just for flavoring. It's not very healthy with regards to fatty acid ratios. Also, don't cook sesame oil at all- add at the end to Asian-style dishes (just a few teaspoons will usually give a nice flavor).

Flax seed oil can be used as a salad oil- it should always be kept refrigerated (and only buy it if it's already refrigerated), and never heat it up or leave it out in the air. It will oxidize right away. Put on the food (or dip bread in it) and use right away. Flax seed oil is a good nutritional supplement for Omega 3- it doesn't taste like much, it's just slightly nutty. If it tastes like fish, it's rancid and should not be eaten.

[Neptual]

I always use olive oil when I cook with it. Olive oil is one of the healthiest oils you can use. But I'm sure you already know that too much of anything can be bad for you.

[TheVeganAtheist]

I use olive oil seldomly. Ive been using grape seed oil for frying and coating.

[brimstoneSalad]

I use olive oil seldomly. Ive been using grape seed oil for frying and coating.

Grapeseed oil has a minor culinary benefit for some lightly flavored dishes in that it has a very light flavor that doesn't affect the taste of food (for example, if you don't like the taste of olive oil or canola oil, or for some reason that flavor would cause problems with the dish). But that's where the benefits end, as far as I can tell.

Under no circumstances could I recommend anybody consume grape seed oil from a health perspective.

Grape seed oil is very high in polyunsaturated fats, making it a very dangerous cooking oil, because under high heat these fats oxidize and react into carcinogenic compounds.

If you're frying, you need to be using monounsaturated fats, or saturated fats. Nutritionally, monounsaturated fats are better for you. Saturated fats, however, are the most stable under high heat (coconut oil is an option if you're doing a lot of high heat frying- although high heat frying is a practice that isn't very advisable in itself).

If you're making baked goods like bread or cookies where the oil will be largely encapsulated in the dough, and not exposed to oxygen or high temperatures, or making salad dressing, or perhaps cooking at low temperatures (like steaming), then you can employ a polyunsaturated fatty acid to cook with without worry.

However, grapeseed oil is primarily Omega-6, and contains almost no Omega-3, making it a poor choice of polyunsaturated fatty acids (it's extremely out of balance) compared to other superior options like canola oil. Nutritional experts recommend a lower ratio of Omega-6 to Omega-3. A ratio of 4:1 is a common recommendation for the healthy maximum of Omega 6. 1:1 ratios are generally considered very healthy.

Canola oil has a healthy ratio of about 2:1
Olive oil is less so, at 10:1, but it is mostly monounsaturated, so it doesn't have much effect on your ratios (it doesn't contain much omega 6 or 3, so it's more neutral)
Grape seed oil is about 700:1, which may make it the worst oil available for any purpose.


If you aren't concerned with health, and just worried about the taste of your food, and you want a very mild cooking oil with a high smoke point, I suppose grapeseed oil would be a viable choice. Chefs tend to love it, because it doesn't interfere with the flavor of a dish in any way- it's as neutral as water, and particularly good for more delicate desserts.
But if health has any influence on your cooking practices, it's best to stick with olive oil for most cooking needs.

[TheVeganAtheist]

I use olive oil seldomly. Ive been using grape seed oil for frying and coating.

Grapeseed oil has a minor culinary benefit for some lightly flavored dishes in that it has a very light flavor that doesn't affect the taste of food (for example, if you don't like the taste of olive oil or canola oil, or for some reason that flavor would cause problems with the dish). But that's where the benefits end, as far as I can tell.

Under no circumstances could I recommend anybody consume grape seed oil from a health perspective.

Grape seed oil is very high in polyunsaturated fats, making it a very dangerous cooking oil, because under high heat these fats oxidize and react into carcinogenic compounds.

If you're frying, you need to be using monounsaturated fats, or saturated fats. Nutritionally, monounsaturated fats are better for you. Saturated fats, however, are the most stable under high heat (coconut oil is an option if you're doing a lot of high heat frying- although high heat frying is a practice that isn't very advisable in itself).

If you're making baked goods like bread or cookies where the oil will be largely encapsulated in the dough, and not exposed to oxygen or high temperatures, or making salad dressing, or perhaps cooking at low temperatures (like steaming), then you can employ a polyunsaturated fatty acid to cook with without worry.

However, grapeseed oil is primarily Omega-6, and contains almost no Omega-3, making it a poor choice of polyunsaturated fatty acids (it's extremely out of balance) compared to other superior options like canola oil. Nutritional experts recommend a lower ratio of Omega-6 to Omega-3. A ratio of 4:1 is a common recommendation for the healthy maximum of Omega 6. 1:1 ratios are generally considered very healthy.

Canola oil has a healthy ratio of about 2:1
Olive oil is less so, at 10:1, but it is mostly monounsaturated, so it doesn't have much effect on your ratios (it doesn't contain much omega 6 or 3, so it's more neutral)
Grape seed oil is about 700:1, which may make it the worst oil available for any purpose.


If you aren't concerned with health, and just worried about the taste of your food, and you want a very mild cooking oil with a high smoke point, I suppose grapeseed oil would be a viable choice. Chefs tend to love it, because it doesn't interfere with the flavor of a dish in any way- it's as neutral as water, and particularly good for more delicate desserts.
But if health has any influence on your cooking practices, it's best to stick with olive oil for most cooking needs.

Could you please provide source for this, as I was under the impression that grapeseed oil was one of the healthier oils, especially for frying. Im not sure where I got that impression, as Ive been using it for a few years. Doing a quick search on google Ive found a few pages (not sure if they are reputable) that suggest that grapeseed oil is one of the most healthy.

Also, you mentioned that coconut oil is an option, yet I just finished watching a Dr. Michael Gregor video in which he states that coconut oil is one of the worst for frying.

[brimstoneSalad]

Could you please provide source for this, as I was under the impression that grapeseed oil was one of the healthier oils, especially for frying. Im not sure where I got that impression, as Ive been using it for a few years. Doing a quick search on google Ive found a few pages (not sure if they are reputable) that suggest that grapeseed oil is one of the most healthy.

The grapeseed oil fad is mostly riding on the coat tails of some of the known benefits of other grape compounds, and some clever marketer took advantage of that association. Grapes are healthy, right? Grapeseed oil must be too.
The problem is, grapeseed oil is just oil; it hardly contains any trace of those "good" substances from the grapes.
Health claims abound. I have not found any to be substantiated.\


Regarding use for frying, there are two elements to cooking oil.

You may be thinking about the smoke point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point

In cooking, the smoke point of an oil or fat is the temperature at which, under defined conditions, enough volatile compounds emerge from the oil that a bluish smoke becomes clearly visible. At this temperature, volatile compounds, such as water, free fatty acids, and short-chain degradation products of oxidation come up from the oil. The smoke point is not the temperature at which the oil is decomposed and where possibly toxicological relevant compounds are formed.

Grapeseed oil's smoke point is about 216°C, which is pretty respectable (better than virgin olive oil or coconut oil, but not as good as refined coconut oil).

Smoke point is mostly what chefs worry about. And in that sense, Grape seed oil is quite useful (particularly as it's flavorless). But while this may be relevant to a chef, allowing them to cook things at a higher temperature (thus faster, and maybe crispier), it's largely irrelevant to nutrition (just don't heat beyond the smoke point, and use a vent hood when frying at higher temperatures).

From a nutritional standpoint, you want a stable oil which will not become carcinogenic with exposure to heat and oxygen, and one with a good fatty acid profile.

Note the fatty acid composition of grapeseed oil:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapeseed_oil

It's one of the worst there is. Just based on the obvious numbers on the tin, we should be avoiding it for nutritional reasons because it will screw with your overall omega 3:6 ratio.

I haven't looked into every additional health claim surrounding grape seed oil in detail, but I don't think they are credible relative to other superior oils.
It would be wise to be dubious of these (in the same sense that wine health claims are dubious).
Grapes contain a lot of great substances- grape seed oil does not contain any of these in appreciable amounts.

Grapeseed oil does contain Phytosterols, which lower LDL cholesterol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytosterol

And that's all well and good, but:

Phytosterol-enriched foods and dietary supplements have been marketed for decades. Despite well documented LDL cholesterol lowering effects, no scientifically proven evidence of any beneficial effect on cardiovascular disease (CVD) or overall mortality exists.[2]

So it probably doesn't matter, while the deleterious effects of the Omega-6 overdose and the carcinogens in the oil are more established ills that do seem more to correspond to heart disease, and overall mortality.

And grapeseed oil doesn't even contain very much Phytosterols. I'm having trouble finding a single site with number on this, but from what I've found:

Grapeseed oil: __24 mg/tablespoon
Olive oil: ________22mg/tablespoon.
Canola oil: ______92mg/tablespoon.

(please correct me if you can find good number on this)

Is that worth the difference in nutrition?
No. First off, it's not worth it because it's not proven it does anything at all. But even more so, because it's not substantially more concentrated in grape seed oil than in other oils- and Canola oil is even better.

For a frying oil, though, out of the three, olive oil is the most viable choice due to stability differences (at a molecular level, not smoke point).
If you want olive oil with a higher smoke point, you can find in more processed forms (but I don't recommend those).

Is frying with grapeseed or canola oil going to kill you? No, probably not. There is unfortunately not a lot of solid research on oil oxidation, or on the effects of oxidized oils on the body. Still, I recommend avoiding high heat on polyunsaturated fats particularly, because we do know they are less stable, and that the compounds produced are bad for us.

Note in the wikipedia article on grapeseed oil:

Grapeseed oil has sometimes been found to contain dangerous levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons because of direct contact with combustion gases during the drying process.[8]

PAHs are some of the nasty carcinogens I was talking about that form from unstable polyunsaturated fatty acids when they're exposed to heat- in this case, quite high heat from processing. It is the inherent instability of the oil that lends itself to this happening so easily.


There are some people who claim that even olive oil (monounsaturated) is bad to cook with, and recommend cooking exclusively with saturated oils (like coconut) because saturated fats are the most heat stable. I won't go that far, and I think that's a little counterproductive given the apparent health differences between monounsaturated fats and saturated fats.

Here's an article arguing against that, which incidentally has a great list of facts about what happens to oils under heat, and the relative stability.

http://scienceornot.net/2012/09/15/is-i ... olive-oil/

• Vegetable oils oxidise as they age and are exposed to air and light. This process is accelerated when they are heated (here, here).
• Some of the oxidation products are toxic (here, here, here and here), but (here) we have good natural defences against such substances.
• The ease of oxidation of an oil is influenced by its degree of unsaturation. Polyunsaturated oils oxidise more easily than saturated oils (here).
• Corn oil and sunflower oil contain high proportions of polyunsaturated oils; they oxidise easily. Coconut oil is high in saturated oils; it doesn’t oxidise easily.
• Olive oil contains a high proportion of monounsaturated oil. It oxidises less easily than polyunsaturated oils (here, here).
• Virgin and extra-virgin olive oils also contain antioxidants which help resist oxidation as the oil is heated (here, here and here). Several studies have shown that virgin olive oil produces fewer oxidation products than polyunsaturated oils when heated (here, here)
• If an oil is heated beyond its smoke point, it gives off toxic smoke. The smoke point of olive oil is around 200°C. Some refined oils, such as palm, peanut, safflower and soybean oils can have smoke points around 230°C to 260°C, but unrefined oils can have smoke points in the low hundreds.
• I could find no studies showing evidence of damage to the health of humans resulting from oxidation products of cooking oils.

(Check the article itself for linked references)

How harmful are the oxidation products of polyunsaturated oils?
I don't know.

But there's no good nutritional reason to fry with them, particularly when we're talking about an oil with a gross excess of Omega-6 fats and no apparent health benefits when sized up among its more healthy peers.

Also, you mentioned that coconut oil is an option, yet I just finished watching a Dr. Michael Gregor video in which he states that coconut oil is one of the worst for frying.

I'd love to see the video.

Can you find a link?

I don't generally recommend coconut oil, because it's a saturated fat, but the evidence seems to indicate that it is more heat stable because of that (in its refined form, at least).
Although, I also don't generally recommend frying anyway.

[TheVeganAtheist]

Here is the link to the Dr. Michael Gregor video:
http://youtu.be/i6vdycYq3SI

[brimstoneSalad]

Here is the link to the Dr. Michael Gregor video:
http://youtu.be/i6vdycYq3SI

Thanks. Here's the one on his site:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/deep-frying-toxins/

I see he's talking about respiratory risk, from the substances coming off from deep frying. I believe that is due to exceeding the smoke point.

Deep frying uses absurdly high temperatures, and the low smoke point of virgin coconut oil probably isn't up to the task. Although the oil may not break down in the food, the unrefined oil contains a lot of other volatile things (which are what contributed to the fumes).

That's interesting, and it's a subject I haven't studied much because I don't really deep fry.

I'd like to read more about it, but unfortunately I can't access his references (doesn't seem to be anything there on one, and another is asking for $10?).

As it stands, I would be more inclined to eat food deep fried in coconut oil than in canola oil, but I would be less inclined to stay in the room where the frying was going on with coconut oil, because of the likely toxic fumes produced from exceeding the smoke point.

I only pan fry with minimal oil at a lower temperature. If your food is cooking exceptionally fast, your temperature is up too high. As long as the pan is full of water rich foods, the phase change keeps the temperature of the whole pan down to a reasonable level- it's when they dry out, or you let the oil heat on its own without food in the pan, that you get into the danger zone.

[Humane Hominid]

In the "starter kit" provided to us by our vegan mentor were several books and DVDs by this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAkEYcmCCCk

As some of you may know, Rip Esselstyn promotes what he calls a "plant strong" diet, which I'd characterize as Vegan with a Vengeance: He goes beyond veganism as I understand it to say you should also avoid all refined foods, including refined oils. His "Engine 2 Diet" is explained here:

http://engine2diet.com

For me this is a step too far. I'm already giving up meat and fish and seafood and dairy and eggs and honey. Please don't ask me to also give up oil! As far as I can tell, no animals are harmed in the production of olive or other oils, and I'm not convinced they're as terrible for health as Rip seems to think. I want to be able to continue to enjoy the de facto vegan dishes I've always loved that call for oil.

How do you folks feel about this?

There's actually nothing extreme about the Engine 2 Diet. In fact, I'd argue that it's a more accessible take on veganism than most of the other ones I've seen. Full disclosure: I've followed this plan for over a year now, and gotten good results with it, so I'm biased.

That said, here's what makes it easier for mainstream people.

1) It doesn't rely on exotic ingredients that can only be found in health food stores. I've been able to find every ingredient of every recipe in mainstream markets and grocers. Most of them are familiar to most people, and therefore the mental impact of changing to strange new ways is minimized.

2) It's hearty and filling. As the author points out, he had to convince a group of male, Texan firefighters to eat this diet. If they found it delectable and satisfying, most other people should, too.

3) It doesn't require calorie-counting or other complicated activities. Just stick to the approved recipes, and you can eat as much of them as you want, whenever you want.

4) Its recipes aren't strange. They're vegan versions of things everyone (at least in the U.S.) is used to: pizzas, burgers, hot dogs, burritos, stir-fries, tacos, pancakes, etc.

5) Both of his books are written in a breezy, conversational style full of endearing anecdotes about fire-fighter culture or his family traditions. He's never preachy or guilt-trippy, and comes of more like a supportive dad or coach.

EDITED TO ADD: 6) He has two plans -- one for people who want to ease into it, and one for people who want to go full-bore right from the start. For the first group, things are removed and replaced with new options each week -- dairy the first week, meats the second, and so on -- so the ease-in readers have the additional feeling of a safety net, and are able to rely on familiar options while making the transition.

The restriction on added oils is not a burden at all, as oil is largely unnecessary in most recipes that call for it. The reason for leaving them out is that they are pure fat, and thus add unnecessary calories to dishes for people who are trying to lose weight. Once you get the hang of the substitutions, you won't miss added oils at all.

Now, I didn't have much weight to lose, so my main interest was the recipes themselves. And after 10+ years as a vegan, I have to say that I found these to be some of the best there are. They're rib-sticking and last a long time, which is important for me as I do CrossFit and many other physical activities. Engine 2 is a great strategy for cutting calories while still feeling full and not having to think about it.

He doesn't emphasize the animal rights aspect of veganism, but doesn't ignore it, either, so the net effect is that people trying it out for weight loss and improved bio-markers will see the benefits first-hand -- and rather quickly, I might add -- and realize that they can be healthy and also eat the way their conscience demands.