EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:Admins should not be expected to put in a lot of work for a user who is uninterested in using the forum.
A deleted account can not be recovered. We would have to manually move every single post to make it so it can be recovered.
If you walk into a store in the mall and leave without buying anything, the staff is still going to be super polite and respectful to you.
That's fine, but what if you then demand they delete the security footage that contains images of you, and inconvenience other customers by closing some of the stores which you went into in order to clean them to make sure there are no hairs, fibers, or fingerprints left behind from you?
If somebody can point at a particular privacy issue, like a link accidentally shared, it's good precedent to delete it (whether this is an active user or not). But removing entire conversations that have no substantially personally identifiable information in them goes beyond a reasonable request, particularly when there are other people involved.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmCan't there be a way to make it so that all of a users posts can be moved to the blackhole (deleting an account) and moved back? Why would that be complicated?
PHPBB does not support this.
It just can't be done. It would all have to be done manually, and that's very bad precedent leading to users expecting admins to put in that much work. And a deleted account still can't be restored. I changed the username, which is the thing that can be undone if requested.
So, unless you want to learn how to program and spend a few weeks programming that feature for the sake of users who want to leave, and for no explicable reason want their posts removed (which hurts the forum and other active users)...
But even if there were such a feature, given that it harms active users (who want conversations they spent time on to remain valuable) for the sake of a user who does not want to participate anymore, I would not be for implementing it.
I sympathize with privacy concerns. Not so much with deleting anonymous content for no apparent reason which then harms other users.
Do you remember how much time I spent arguing with Teo and convincing him the Earth was round?
I didn't do that just for Teo. I put in that work so it would serve as a reference for arguments.
If Teo left and deleted all of his posts, that thread would become useless and all of my work on that lost.
I would leave the forum if that were the rule here.
I do not waste my time on Youtube comments for this very reason. Every bit of work you put in can be wiped away in an instant, and none of it index-able. That's Youtube's prerogative, and that's fine, but that's how forums are different from Youtube and why I post here but not there.
Now if Teo let slip his address or real name somewhere, I would be glad to remove it because that doesn't affect the usefulness of the conversation.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmIf it is too complicated, then we should leave recovery out. Deleting without recovery is better than no deleting, because it gives the most choice to the user. If a user feels they have jeopardized their privacy, or for any additional reason wants to delete their posts and/or account, that should be their perogative.
I disagree. Other people participate here, and that would harm them for the sake of a user (or hacker, we don't even know if the request is legit and there's no way to confirm that).
I think you're trying to take one side here because you see the departing user as in a victim situation somehow, and it's causing you to ignore very real harm done to existing users and the forum.
We have to weigh cost and benefit here, and I will (and by duty must) prefer the forum and active users over departing ones when there's a conflict of interests.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmWhy can't users even delete their own posts? That makes no sense. They're their posts.
Because it harms other users. This is a discussion forum. Other discussion forums also have similar rules prohibiting deletion of posts, because it makes conversation and debate threads unreadable. This is normal for serious discussion forums. It may not be normal for casual forums where people talk about their lives or their pets, but this isn't that.
People invest time and energy here on serious discussions which themselves are timeless and serve as important references that are web indexed, and they expect their discussions to be available for reference and to link others to.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmWell no, that's not dangerous. How is that dangerous? Will that make you injured or sick?
It harms their interests.
Destroying a person's work is harmful. It is an injury, just not a physical one.
What if you spent years building up a blog, and it was your reputation and life's work, and somebody just deleted it forever for fun?
Or spent your life on a painting, and somebody just tossed it into a fire?
Not cool.
People who work hard on their content would rather be physically injured or sick.
I'd rather be punched in the gut than lose my work here, or have it devalued by becoming unreadable (same thing).
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmNo. It's an inconvenience.
Then it's an inconvenience for people to not be able to delete their posts. This forum exists for its users and those who find the threads useful and educational, not its non-users.
You can't argue that it's a mere inconvenience to have your content deleted, and so it doesn't matter, but then argue that it's important that people be able to delete their content.
You should be able to delete all of your shit on Facebook (that's very personal), or even somewhere like Deviant Art (again, your personal art and whatever). This isn't that; this affects others, because conversations (which are mostly evergreen here) are intimately linked and each post is essential in a dialogue to follow the discussion. By deleting your stuff, you'd cause havoc for others and harm their work.
You're taking sides against active forum members here, and I don't think you fully realize the implications.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmBut why would that happen anyway? Why would someone who came across another person's account, presumably on a library computer or something, go to the trouble of doing that?
Because they're assholes, or malicious. People do that stuff all the time. I've had people do stuff on my accounts in the past. People can and will delete accounts for fun when they find them on public computers. Or even angry siblings who sneak into rooms to get revenge.
Search "My brother deleted my account".
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pm"if the user is polite"
No. If there are privacy issues, it should 100% be the choice of the user to remove their posts. What do you mean, if they're polite? What is this?
It takes time out of other people's days to do that.
There's no law that compels such deletion (unless we're talking about somebody under 13, in which case parents can ask any way they want; we
have to). For adults, unless they have a court order, it's a matter of courtesy.
People can't come here being rude and making demands and expect others to do work for them as a matter of entitlement.
Yes, they need to ask nicely.
If they demand rudely, then apologize and ask nicely later that's fine. But they will be respectful and ask nicely if they expect people to do things for them that are not required by law.
I think that's more than fair.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmI don't know why you're making this so complicated.
I'm not, it's very simple.
Doing this establishes a bad precedent, it harms the forum and other users.
If this was the rule on the forum, I would no longer participate. I'm not going to hand over draconian control to deleting posts and making threads unreadable to people who want to ragequit and harm the forum. It would become pointless having conversations when they just disappear.
If there are legitimate privacy concerns, I'm all for helping and fixing those. That's as far as it goes, though. I won't act against the interests of active users for the sake of the whim of a user who has no interest in the forum.
EquALLity wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pmYou'd only have to put in work if they want to recover their account.
Again, that's functionally impossible. An admin can not un-delete an account.
We would have to load a backup of the forum from a previous day, and ALL of the posts since then by other users would be lost. So then we'd have to copy all of those posts manually before restoring the backup and re-post them after, making a note that it's a post from another user.
That's absurd. Sorry, no.
If it makes you feel better, I can add into the forum rules a note to make it clear that posts will not be edited or deleted except for the case of legitimate privacy concerns when the user asks nicely, and explain why. It's not really a rule, though, it's just something they can't do. And that's true on many forums and comment sections.