Change of forum name?

Technical problems, questions, comments, and suggestions for the forum and wiki.

Should the name be changed to make the forum less alienating?

Yes, change it
15
71%
No, keep it the same
6
29%
 
Total votes: 21

Cirion Spellbinder
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Re: Change of forum name?

Post by Cirion Spellbinder » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:52 pm

EquALLity wrote:I think that these names might be a bit too vague, and they don't really include anything about animal rights, which is largely what we discuss here.

What do you think about that?
If we can reference animal rights without using the words animal rights or the word vegan, it might be more useful to add it to the forum name. My understanding of the issue is that people stereotype vegans as overly sensitive, pretentious hippies or social justice warriors. Both parties are easy to dismiss as unreasonable, so labeling ourselves vegans leads to our ultimate dismissal.

Maybe we could name the forum in broader moral terms which describe veganism, like altruism or consequentialism?

We (as usual :) ) need more information on the matter. Maybe we could conduct an experiment comparing the different forum names' ability to bring new members and the type of members?
EquALLity wrote:Maybe you were going for being kind of vague?
Yes, sort of. I really just want to avoid having our forum dismissed as an echo chamber for irrational babies.
EquALLity wrote:I'm just worried that being too non-specific won't spark as much interest, and won't really attract people who are into animal rights (since it's not mentioned in these titles). Vegan Youtubers might also not be interested in promoting the forum when it doesn't mention animal rights.
I think people attracted by animal rights labels are as follows:
• Veg*ns
• Meat eaters who already want to become veg*ns or are curious
• Meat eaters who want to troll veg*ns or are idiots
If we switched to a title that describes a moral system that implies veganism or simply removed veganism, I think we could attract more people:
• Meat eaters whom are interested in objective morality
• Philosophical academia
• Moral nihilists / relativists
But like you said, we would probably be less likely to attract fellow animal rights activists, but I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Why do you think it is?

I think if we mention moral systems that imply veganism, then began YouTubers would be interested in advertising the forum, but if completely eliminate the moral component (like I suggested earlier) there would probably be less promotion.

Ultimately, I think we just need more information.

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EquALLity
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Post by EquALLity » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:16 pm

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:If we can reference animal rights without using the words animal rights or the word vegan, it might be more useful to add it to the forum name. My understanding of the issue is that people stereotype vegans as overly sensitive, pretentious hippies or social justice warriors. Both parties are easy to dismiss as unreasonable, so labeling ourselves vegans leads to our ultimate dismissal.
Interesting, I thought the stereotype was that we're dogmatic extremists. Either way though, it's a problem if it puts people off.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Maybe we could name the forum in broader moral terms which describe veganism, like altruism or consequentialism?
Nobody knows what the hell those terms mean, though. ;)
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:We (as usual :) ) need more information on the matter. Maybe we could conduct an experiment comparing the different forum names' ability to bring new members and the type of members?
I completely agree.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:I think people attracted by animal rights labels are as follows:
• Veg*ns
• Meat eaters who already want to become veg*ns or are curious
• Meat eaters who want to troll veg*ns or are idiots
If we switched to a title that describes a moral system that implies veganism or simply removed veganism, I think we could attract more people:
• Meat eaters whom are interested in objective morality
• Philosophical academia
• Moral nihilists / relativists
But like you said, we would probably be less likely to attract fellow animal rights activists, but I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Why do you think it is?
I didn't say it was a problem if we had less activists, but I think it's a problem if we get people who have no interest in animal rights and lose people who have more of a potential to go vegan/vegetarian.
There's also the issue with advertisement and spreading the forum.

I don't think we should include a moral system in the title, because I think most people won't know the terms and won't bother.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

Cirion Spellbinder
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Post by Cirion Spellbinder » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:35 pm

EquALLity wrote:Interesting, I thought the stereotype was that we're dogmatic extremists. Either way though, it's a problem if it puts people off.
You're right, but keep in mind that social justice warriors and hippies are merely examples dogmatic extremists. :D
EquALLity wrote:Nobody knows what the hell those terms mean, though. ;)
Good point, but I think most people know what altruism is and who altruists are, so if we can incorporate altruism, then
EquALLity wrote:I didn't say it was a problem if we had less activists, but I think it's a problem if we get people who have no interest in animal rights and lose people who have more of a potential to go vegan/vegetarian.
This might be the case if the forum was completely restarted and none of us were here. As the forum is now, our most active members are all vegans. Animal rights discussion won't be going anywhere unless we are flooded with new recruits, at worst we will just see more variation in discussion.
EquALLity wrote:There's also the issue with advertisement and spreading the forum.
Who do you think should advertise our forum? Why would they not advertise it because of the title?
As of now, I think we could get Unnatural Vegan and Think About This to advertise the forum as long as our name isn't terrible and offensive, as they are both members of the community and proponents of reason and science (if I missed someone here with a significant following, let me know).
EquALLity wrote:I don't think we should include a moral system in the title, because I think most people won't know the terms and won't bother.
I think altruism could be effectively incorporated into the forum name. How do you think we should reference animal rights in the name and why?

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EquALLity
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Post by EquALLity » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:52 pm

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:You're right, but keep in mind that social justice warriors and hippies are merely examples dogmatic extremists. :D
SJW is often used as a snarl word, but when applied accurately, I agree.

As for hippies... What's wrong with hippies? ;)
They're about peace, helping the planet, and activism.
I also like their music. :P
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: Good point, but I think most people know what altruism is and who altruists are, so if we can incorporate altruism, then
I really doubt that most people have even heard the word 'altruism'.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:This might be the case if the forum was completely restarted and none of us were here. As the forum is now, our most active members are all vegans. Animal rights discussion won't be going anywhere unless we are flooded with new recruits, at worst we will just see more variation in discussion.
I'm not saying that animal rights discussion would end, but I'm concerned we'll get people who aren't open to veganism and lose people who are actually interested in it.
What do you think about that?
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Who do you think should advertise our forum? Why would they not advertise it because of the title?
As of now, I think we could get Unnatural Vegan and Think About This to advertise the forum as long as our name isn't terrible and offensive, as they are both members of the community and proponents of reason and science (if I missed someone here with a significant following, let me know).
We'd advertise (or promote) it to get more people to join (why else would we?).
For the same reason they wouldn't advertise it if it had atheist in the title... The forum might not only be for atheists/anti-theists, but the title gives a certain general impression about the forum.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:I think altruism could be effectively incorporated into the forum name. How do you think we should reference animal rights in the name and why?
What makes you think that altruism is such a well-known word?

We could use the word vegan, or even vegetarian, since that might put off less people.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

Cirion Spellbinder
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Post by Cirion Spellbinder » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:10 pm

EquALLity wrote:As for hippies... What's wrong with hippies? ;)
They're about peace, helping the planet, and activism.
I doubt they are advocating these things because they have an underlying, valid consequentialist moral system. Maybe they came to the right conclusions, but not necessarily for the right reasons.
EquALLity wrote:I also like their music. :P
Clearly the best indicator of whether or not a demographic is mostly reasonable! :P
EquALLity wrote:I really doubt that most people have even heard the word 'altruism'.
Maybe I just know lots of people who know what it means? I don't think I've ever had to define it for anyone during conversation.
EquALLity wrote:I'm not saying that animal rights discussion would end, but I'm concerned we'll get people who aren't open to veganism and lose people who are actually interested in it.
What do you think about that?
Do you think they'll join and just ignore all the animal rights topics? I no longer think we should remove the concept of animal rights completely from the name, but I still think that using a broader moral term or less known vegan synonym would be better.
EquALLity wrote:
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Who do you think should advertise our forum? Why would they not advertise it because of the title?
As of now, I think we could get Unnatural Vegan and Think About This to advertise the forum as long as our name isn't terrible and offensive, as they are both members of the community and proponents of reason and science (if I missed someone here with a significant following, let me know).
We'd advertise (or promote) it to get more people to join (why else would we?).
For the same reason they wouldn't advertise it if it had atheist in the title... The forum might not only be for atheists/anti-theists, but the title gives a certain general impression about the forum.
I asked about who, and you accidentally answered why. :)
EquALLity wrote:What makes you think that altruism is such a well-known word?
I've never had to tell anyone what it means, like I usually have to do with consequentialism.
EquALLity wrote:We could use the word vegan, or even vegetarian, since that might put off less people.
Don't you think the latter option is dishonest?

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EquALLity
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Post by EquALLity » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:35 pm

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:I doubt they are advocating these things because they have an underlying, valid consequentialist moral system. Maybe they came to the right conclusions, but not necessarily for the right reasons.
It depends on the person.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Clearly the best indicator of whether or not a demographic is mostly reasonable! :P
Exactly! ;)
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Do you think they'll join and just ignore all the animal rights topics? I no longer think we should remove the concept of animal rights completely from the name, but I still think that using a broader moral term or less known vegan synonym would be better.
Maybe, actually. Some people on here have refused to debate certain topics.

What synonym do you have for vegan, besides vegetarian?
Cirion Spellbinder wrote: I asked about who, and you accidentally answered why. :)
My bad!
Other vegan Youtubers, like Bite Size Vegan. That would attract dogmatic vegans who we might be able to debate into being more reasonable (and thereby better for vegan activism).
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:I've never had to tell anyone what it means, like I usually have to do with consequentialism.
I think that's pretty surprising.
Maybe you hang out with more philosophical people?
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Don't you think the latter option is dishonest?
Why? Vegans are vegetarians, after all; we just also don't eat animal products.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

Cirion Spellbinder
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Post by Cirion Spellbinder » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:35 pm

EquALLity wrote:It depends on the person.
Agreed.
EquALLity wrote:Maybe, actually. Some people on here have refused to debate certain topics.
Discussion is required here. If you have a view people disagree with, and they vocalize said disagreement, you have to either concede or refute. Otherwise you will be banned.
EquALLity wrote:What synonym do you have for vegan, besides vegetarian?
None, really. That's why I was asking.
EquALLity wrote:Other vegan Youtubers, like Bite Size Vegan. That would attract dogmatic vegans who we might be able to debate into being more reasonable (and thereby better for vegan activism).
Do you think dogmatic vegan YouTubers would want to promote a non-dogmatic forum?
EquALLity wrote:I think that's pretty surprising.
Maybe you hang out with more philosophical people?
You were right originally. It isn't a common word. I polled some of my friends and only 2 out of 12 (approximately 17%) of them were remotely close to knowing what altruism meant. :lol:
EquALLity wrote:Why? Vegans are vegetarians, after all; we just also don't eat animal products.
I suppose that's true. Never mind. Vegetarian might be our best bet.

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Jaywalker
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Post by Jaywalker » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:55 pm

I think it should have "vegetarian" in the title. "The Rational Vegetarian" or "The Ethical Vegetarian". It may attract more meat eaters and it may attract other vegans like The Rational Vegan guys, abolitionists, or plain old vegans who think vegetarians are just as bad as meat eaters.

"There's no such thing as an ethical vegetarian! Become vegan already! Throw away your old wool clothes!.. What do you mean it's sometimes ok to use animals?"

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miniboes
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Post by miniboes » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:26 pm

Jaywalker wrote:I think it should have "vegetarian" in the title. "The Rational Vegetarian" or "The Ethical Vegetarian". It may attract more meat eaters and it may attract other vegans like The Rational Vegan guys, abolitionists, or plain old vegans who think vegetarians are just as bad as meat eaters.

"There's no such thing as an ethical vegetarian! Become vegan already! Throw away your old wool clothes!.. What do you mean it's sometimes ok to use animals?"
I do not agree. As far as I'm aware, there is not a single vegetarian here. It would be like changing the name to 'VeganAgnostic'. It seems disingenuous and unnecessarily soft to me. I'm also totally unconvinced it would attract more people. In fact, I think it would discourage vegans to join exactly because of the anti-vegetarian sentiment you mentioned. We may have a bit of an overflow of vegans, but those tend to be the people that stick, and we still have plenty to disagree on.

Most of us are vegans, and it's the core of what this forum is about; rational, open-minded vegans having thoughtful discussions.
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brimstoneSalad
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:47 pm

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/https%3A%2F%2Ftheveganatheist.com%2Fforum

This may provide some insight into where people are coming from. Most searches are for "vegan forum". Atheist is far down.

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