Isaac's debate challenge and past DMs/emails

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brimstoneSalad
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Isaac's debate challenge and past DMs/emails

Post by brimstoneSalad » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:13 pm

So, Isaac did not object to my sharing the correspondence (he wouldn't explicitly say "yes" either, he called me autistic for asking), but since they weren't explicitly confidential anyway and there's really no reason I should be erring on the side of treating them as such given his behavior, I'm going to go ahead and post them here.

In this post, two things: His "challenge", and the brief exchange after in which he didn't object to my sharing it, and complained about me being "autistic".
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Wherein he doesn't object to sharing this:
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Again, these exchanges were never really confidential (and by law they are not), I just treat all non-public exchanges with discretion by default.

The only reason I care is because I don't want anybody to feel like I would share private correspondence that he or she objects to my sharing, or not having the opportunity to object to it.
I also don't think there's any reason he would object to this stuff, because he's no less rude or obtuse in public view.

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Post by Dream Sphere » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 pm

I think it's apparent that AY wouldn't be respectful in a debate. His style often seems to be interjecting before the other person has completely made their case, and he seems to want to be in control in a way which narrows the scope of the debate to the point where he won't let you really lay it out (often tripping the other person up) in a complete way, due to the narrow window he's set up, which if you stray from will get him to keep telling you to stay focused on this little window while he ignores the bigger picture.

Since we can probably count on him not letting the audience hear you out and sticking to tactics of talking over you, I would say only debate him if you have a good moderator and you think your debating skills are adequate enough to not let him completely control the debate.

Given that you're less experienced as a live YT debater and wouldn't stoop to his tactics, I imagine it's possible that he could run circles around you, but not in the right way, although it could appear that he's actually "winning" to someone who can't really hear out what you're saying due to his lack of manners in debating when he's pissed off.

I would say definitely do it if you were a more experienced live debater. If you could get a decent amount of practice in live debating or figure out how to stay on your points without letting him switch the focus to his narrow setup, then it might be worth a try.

Also, if you debate him, I'm unsure if pointing out his poor etiquette would be a good idea since he could accuse you of dancing around/avoiding the issue. Since he would probably accuse you of doing the same just in you making your argument, I think it might be best to let the moderator call him out on debate etiquette and stick to trying to make your points so you give less fuel to the idea that you're dancing around the issue at hand. Though, that requires a good mod, so it's uncertain whether what I imagine to be necessary for a decent debate being available or not.

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Post by NonZeroSum » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:04 am

I'd do it in another server he invites everyone too, that way a third person can hold mute power and doesn't let him shout over you endlessly. As well as maybe gives segments for each person to talk without interruption for 5 minutes with the other person muted each time, before back and forth.
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Post by mkm » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:16 am

Dream Sphere wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 pm
Since we can probably count on him not letting the audience hear you out and sticking to tactics of talking over you, I would say only debate him if you have a good moderator and you think your debating skills are adequate enough to not let him completely control the debate.
This so much. A debate, if it's going to happen, must be held on neutral ground. Other issues you should judge in your heart. If you can stay calm, remain quick-thinking under pressure and constant flow of insults, and know how to point out Isaac's mistakes briefly, but to the point, go ahead. The last point may be especially worth considering, though I don't know your experience in debating, I guess writing essays is much easier for people with your personality traits, than debating witty ignorants.

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Post by Lay Vegan » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:11 pm

NonZeroSum wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:04 am
I'd do it in another server he invites everyone too, that way a third person can hold mute power and doesn't let him shout over you endlessly. As well as maybe gives segments for each person to talk without interruption for 5 minutes with the other person muted each time, before back and forth.
Brilliant.

If the debate is going to be productive for anyone, it might be a great idea to allow each person 5 minutes beforehand to state a thesis and make their positions clear. Maybe set a specific debate proposition?

It's the part where the debaters respond to each other's points that I'm worried productivity will decline. Isaac is known to assume the position of the moderator by silencing and talking over his opponent. Take that and pepper in insults like "autistic" and "retard" and we no longer have a debate.

As long as the moderator is sharp, and doesn't hesitate to mute someone if they act uncivil (using personal attacks, being rude, talking over the opponent) the debate can certainly be fruitful.

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:31 pm

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't consider having a moderator; he clearly just wants a spectacle, not an actual discussion. He's too cowardly to confront argument on level ground with an experienced moderator.

Without a moderator I also have no doubt that he will just shout over me and call me autistic, and not let me get a word in edgewise or make any arguments. He's much more skilled at shouting over and insulting people wild childish name calling than I am.

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Post by Lay Vegan » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:46 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:31 pm
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't consider having a moderator; he clearly just wants a spectacle, not an actual discussion. He's too cowardly to confront argument on level ground with an experienced moderator.
He had a (surprisingly tame) moderated discussion with Patty Politics a while back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3QbTOL4fis&t=4s Perhaps his supposed Philosophy PhD pal could moderate your debate?

I can't claim to know his motivations, but his rather hostile behavior leaves me to believe he's not really interested in an exchange of ideas and sound arguments. If you want to invite someone to have an open and and honest discussion about any given topic, maybe telling them that you will "annihilate" them isn't the best way to do it :roll:

I can imagine why Unnatural Vegan has no interest in contending with someone like this.
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:31 pm
Without a moderator I also have no doubt that he will just shout over me and call me autistic, and not let me get a word in edgewise or make any arguments. He's much more skilled at shouting over and insulting people wild childish name calling than I am.
Your previous discussion with him on FriendED's channel speaks for itself. If you don't think he can behave himself, even with an experienced moderator, than debate would be futile.

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:34 pm

I posted this a few minutes ago before I even heard Isaac's response to my terms, which was "fuck that". Am I psychic, or is Isaac just that predictable?
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Post by DarlBundren » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:36 am

I think it would be great for the forum if you debated him. But I also believe that the inferential distance between you and AY is too big (and AY is too big of an asshole) to have a fruitful conversation. Maybe you can choose a different format?

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:27 pm

I don't think it would be very useful to the forum.

He's already made a bunch of videos about this, and the vast majority of intelligent members of his audience would have already realized he's wrong on this. We had an influx of great users from the first couple, but by this point I think his audience is mostly used up.

If it were posted on Vegan Gains' channel instead that might be something different.

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