Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

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Civil_Debate
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Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by Civil_Debate »

Hello Folks,

I'm an Ostrovegan who eats honey, though recent research on bee intelligence (apparently they can learn novel things, it is hard for me to believe they can't suffer if they can do that) is leading me to give it up.

I have a cat who is not on a vegan diet. I don't think I have a moral right to pay for other animals to be tortured to feed him, but I do. I love him, and I'm just not going to euthanize him. His health isn't good, and I don't think he would do well on a vegan diet.

-While the details of my diet have changed and some might question my purity, as far as I'm concerned I've been ethically vegan (apart from buying cat food) since October of 2011, when I finally gave up coffee creamer.

-I have a background in Philosophy. I'm interested in engaging with other vegans and non-vegans intellectually, to discover errors I may have made in my thinking and in my lifestyle. I'm interested in how veganism relates to other questions in practical ethics, and to ethical theory. I'm very influenced by the metaethics of R.M. Hare. I consider myself a 'minimal moral realist'.

-I'm concerned with human and non-human animal welfare, and I don't believe in absolute and inviolable rights for anyone, in principle. Following something like R.M. Hare's multi-level utilitarianism, however, I do think that structures of rights have very important roles to play in practical moral decision-making, in addressing human conflicts. (Politically, I like social contract theory and am a Georgist libertarian)

-I'm a Negative Utilitarian, and am very sympathetic to antinatalism, though I don't think it is a winning strategy for addressing suffering in the world. I'm hoping that Philosopher David Pearce is right, that we might abolish suffering on earth one day through technology.

-I'm a rather 'militant' atheist. I think that we have a moral obligation to be epistemically chaste, and I think it is time to stop giving religious beliefs a moral pass.

-On a more personal level, I'd like some moral support from thoughtful people. I feel very alienated from those who unapologetically pay for other animals to be tortured for their own pleasure. I'd love to hear how others handle this emotionally.

Thanks for your time!
Civil_Debate
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Jebus
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Re: Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by Jebus »

Welcome. One of the best introductions I've seen. I'm very interested in your thoughts on other topics.

Regarding your final question it's a tough one. It drives me nuts thinking of the thousands who have to die and suffer every second because of human ignorance and selfishness so I don't allow my mind to go there. Although hypocritical this is necessary for me to remain sane and effective.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
Civil_Debate
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Re: Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by Civil_Debate »

Thanks Jebus! I generally try not to think about it myself, but it is always there. It especially bothers me that people I love are not vegan. I feel alienated from many of them, especially those who don't even try.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Welcome Civil_Debate!
Great intro,
Civil_Debate wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am I have a cat who is not on a vegan diet. I don't think I have a moral right to pay for other animals to be tortured to feed him, but I do. I love him, and I'm just not going to euthanize him. His health isn't good, and I don't think he would do well on a vegan diet.
Have you tried partially vegan, or introducing some oyster or worm based food?
Maybe you can start a thread on it. We haven't had a cat food thread for a while.
Civil_Debate wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am-I have a background in Philosophy. I'm interested in engaging with other vegans and non-vegans intellectually, to discover errors I may have made in my thinking and in my lifestyle. I'm interested in how veganism relates to other questions in practical ethics, and to ethical theory. I'm very influenced by the metaethics of R.M. Hare. I consider myself a 'minimal moral realist'.
I'm agnostic with respect to minimalist vs. robust realism, but I would say you have made an error with negative utilitarianism.
Civil_Debate wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am-On a more personal level, I'd like some moral support from thoughtful people. I feel very alienated from those who unapologetically pay for other animals to be tortured for their own pleasure. I'd love to hear how others handle this emotionally.
You may have some luck encouraging them toward reducetarianism, but it's hard when people are callous and refuse to make any effort whatsoever.
It's probably as Jebus says; you have to try not to dwell on it, so you can continue being as effective as you can be.
Civil_Debate
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Re: Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by Civil_Debate »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:12 pm Welcome Civil_Debate!
Great intro,
Thanks!
Have you tried partially vegan, or introducing some oyster or worm based food?
Maybe you can start a thread on it. We haven't had a cat food thread for a while.
I looked into oysters some time ago and discovered it wasn't good for cats to eat too much of them. I must admit I hadn't looked into worms. I'm not sure about the moral status of worms, but I imagine using worm meat might result in less suffering than chicken or beef. I'm very excited about this though: https://www.livekindly.co/clean-meat-pet-food/ I don't know that I have much to contribute to a post on vegan cat food, but I'm happy to start one to see if folks in this community have ideas I'm not aware of.
I'm agnostic with respect to minimalist vs. robust realism, but I would say you have made an error with negative utilitarianism.
That's a good topic for discussion then. Perhaps I should start a tread with a defense of negative utilitarianism vs. standard utilitarianism. I think that the moral language game itself constrains the sorts of moral arguments we can make, but I must admit that I think it under-determines moral theory. I'm going to have to 'pump the intuitions' of a standard utilitarian to advocate for negative utilitarianism. That said, I think that there are some tough bullets to bite if one is going to resist negative utilitarianism. I do think there is a strong case to be made that moral discourse itself commits you to some sort of utilitarianism, though. But this doesn't seem to be the place to get into that discussion.
You may have some luck encouraging them toward reducetarianism, but it's hard when people are callous and refuse to make any effort whatsoever.
It's probably as Jebus says; you have to try not to dwell on it, so you can continue being as effective as you can be.
I'm just concerned that I'm living a double life in some ways. I'm hiding my revulsion and outrage quite a bit. I'd like to be genuine to my friends and loved ones, and with some of them that just isn't an option.

Thanks for responding to my introduction!
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Sounds like two great threads to start! :)
I'll respond with more thoughts after you open the threads so the discussion doesn't get lost here.
sykkelmannen
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Re: Hi! Negative Utilitarian, Transhumanist, Atheist Ostrovegan here!

Post by sykkelmannen »

Civil_Debate wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am I have a cat who is not on a vegan diet. I don't think I have a moral right to pay for other animals to be tortured to feed him, but I do.
Hey there! I would like to suggest to make your cat a freegan :) all it takes is one source of free leftover (probably preferably raw) meat. You can turn to dumpster-divers for local advice or ask a local butcher or any restaurant or food joint that handles raw meat. Simplest of all would be to collect from one's own social circle of family and friends. If you run a freezer, you should have no trouble at all managing ;) In case you don't insist on raw meat, this should be a cakewalk.
I must have found like a ton of (mostly dry) catfood in the dumpsters throughout my career btw.
best!
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