Hello, friends~

[Crocodilia]

Hello, I'm Crocodilia.

I came to join this forum after listening to many of The Vegan Atheist's outstanding videos. I was absolutely captivated by the clear, concise, and well thought out arguments he is able to articulate. I've been vegan for a number of years but hadn't self-identified as an atheist until last year. It was listening to audio recordings of "The Atheism Tapes" by Jonathan Miller that did it for me. I think the Dawkins and Weinberg interviews were the most awe-inspiring and impactful for me, though they're all thought-provoking interviews. I still fondly listen to those tapes. Before that, I suspect listening to recorded lectures by the late Alan Watts massaged me into considering listening to the tapes. I think back in horror to a time when I professed belief in a kind of new age interpretation of Hinduism. All manner of unintelligible pseudo-science, such as animal totems and crystal healing once appealed to me. I believed in a kind of vague pantheism that was, more or less, one big argument from ignorance. I've since grown to view such things with contempt. Watching videos such as "The Four Horsemen" of Atheism and Aron Ra's fantastic videos have really helped me.

This is a very nice forum. I've taken the time to read through a number of topics such as the "Why do you eat Animals" thread. It's such a wonderful read! I read the entire thread and absolutely loved it. I saw articulate, internally consistent vegans intellectually eviscerate meat eaters who, many of them, came to realize they didn't have an intellectually honest or defensible position- All the while the vegans were tactful, eloquent, patient, and firm. Thank you for providing such a great community~

[TheVeganAtheist]

Hi Crocodilia, welcome to the forum. Happy to hear you enjoyed my videos. You mentioned that you once believed in new age Hinduism... were you brought up in that religious tradition? I

[brimstoneSalad]

Hi Crocodilia, welcome!

It's impressive that you read the entire thread! I have trouble keeping up, because some of the carnist arguments are hard to read. Glad you liked it.

Congratulations on getting out the the new-age nonsense; I know that can be a hard hole to crawl out of, since it involves such intense "skepticism" of science and all legitimate authority, and superficially appears to be open minded and so even handed that it can really trick people.

[thebestofenergy]

Welcome!
What made you go vegan? How is veganism viewed where you live?

[Crocodilia]

Hi Crocodilia, welcome to the forum. Happy to hear you enjoyed my videos. You mentioned that you once believed in new age Hinduism... were you brought up in that religious tradition?

Thanks for welcoming me. You're one of my favorite youtube atheists and advocate of veganism. It's nce to see you write a reply directly to me Your videos have been of great help to me. I've recently purchased a shirt from the site store to show my support.
Regarding new age hinduism, I was not raised to hold those beliefs. I was brought up in a mild protestant sect of christianity. I was not heavily indoctrinated, nor was I ever baptized. Religion seemed to more or less fade away in our family by the time I was around seven years old. It wasn't until my adult life, in my early 20's, did I become influenced by a charismatic person who got me interested in the new age rubbish. I became heavily vested in the stuff for six or seven years after that. I even tried to chant away ailments and other such idiocies. After hearing the atheism tapes, things started to slowly change. The more I listened to speakers like Dennett and Harris, the less I felt comfortable thoughtlessly professing beliefs. It was a slow, incremental process, gone largely unnoticed. I soon came to hold these vague, half-hearted, new age revisions with more contempt than I do for fundamentalists. At least a fundamentalist is willing to commit to what their holy book tells them. The new age beliefs feel patently "whatever makes you feel good" and weak-kneed. It's as if the truth doesn't actually matter and you can bend things to mean whatever you want them to mean.

Congratulations on getting out the the new-age nonsense; I know that can be a hard hole to crawl out of, since it involves such intense "skepticism" of science and all legitimate authority, and superficially appears to be open minded and so even handed that it can really trick people.

Thank you for the warm welcome, brimstoneSalad. You're right, I hear a lot of anti-science statements from people. Some more subtle and cleverly disguised than others, but they were almost always cloaked in a veil of professed open-mindedness. What really tipped me over the edge and accelerated my departure from new age thinking was a discussion I had on facebook with a friend of a friend. This astrology believing mormon, took issue with an atheistic Steven Weinberg quote I posted on my wall. He would constantly dodge every rebuttal I offered him by saying things like, "...but religion doesn't have to be that way" without adding any clarifying substance or justification to his responses. When asked to provide an example, he mentioned... pygmies, of all things. Pygmies? That is a word used to describe an ethic group. The term in no way denotes a religion. He might as well have gave "black people" as an example of a religion. He was rised mormon, so I guess this level of bigotry shouldn't be too surprising. He also used the word "liberal" to describe mormonism. This uneducated, ethnocentric mormon was disheartening to talk to. He desperately wanted to be thought of as a "new-age" hippie type, that much was clear. His sheer willful ignorance and inconsistency was one reason I decided to openly display less and less tolerance for this kind of mindset.

I must say, I was greatly impressed with many of your posts in the "Why do you eat Animals" thread. You ran circles around a lot of people in there. I agree, some of their arguments are hard to read.

Welcome!
What made you go vegan? How is veganism viewed where you live?

Thank you, thebestofenergy! I first went vegan after first going vegetarian at the start of a new year. I've been fond of animals for as long as I can remember (it's the earliest interest I can recall having). I was arguing against hunting and was asked if I was vegetarian. I realized the hypocrisy and put my money where my mouth was and went vegetarian. It wasn't long after that I went vegan. I went vegan before seeing Earthlings or reading Animal Liberation, but those have strongly helped solidify the courage of my conviction.

In my area there are a number vegetarian friendly restaurants, but not many seem catered to vegans. I've been surprised to encounter a few vegans where I live, but the community doesn't seem as vegan friendly as I'd like. Also, I noticed you made some truly articulate arguments as well in confronting meat eaters. There's been more than one instance where you articulated an argument in a skillful way I'd never thought of. I just wanted to say it is encouraging to find vegans with such well thought out positions. Sometime I hear arguments that I'm not quite sure on the best way to respond, and this forum is a good place to turn to for answers.

[brimstoneSalad]

The new age beliefs feel patently "whatever makes you feel good" and weak-kneed. It's as if the truth doesn't actually matter and you can bend things to mean whatever you want them to mean.

In a real sense, many of them think that's actually how the world works; that there is no objective truth, and through magical thinking, believing something literally augments the objective reality around a person (rather than just their perceptions of it).

[Crocodilia]

That is an incredibly self-centered view of the world.

They'll often say things like, "Well, it's true for me." No, it isn't. There's not a separate truth for you and a separate truth for me. It's either true or it isn't. Biocentrism is the idea that conscious creature create the world. The world is somehow occupied within "consciousness," rather than the other way around. I loathe this kind of non-thinking idiocy. It's just another way of trying to put humans at the center of the universe again. When new-agers start babbling about consciousness, that's typically when they reveal their willful ignorance and outright contempt of science.

It's right up there with arguing that, if I wholeheartedly convince myself of something, what difference does it make in my practical life whether it's true or not? Besides, we can't know for certain either way, right? If it makes me feel good, isn't that justification enough? I've actually heard these arguments made. The mormon I mentioned earlier argued that if a believe comforts him and helps him be who he wants to be, that's justification enough for holding the belief. How do you guys usually respond to someone like that?

[brimstoneSalad]

That is an incredibly self-centered view of the world.

Yes, yes it is.
It's hard to be more egotistical than classical theism "God loves us and created the whole universe just for us and created us in his image and sent his son to die for us personally etc."
But, they may have topped it.

I loathe this kind of non-thinking idiocy. It's just another way of trying to put humans at the center of the universe again. When new-agers start babbling about consciousness, that's typically when they reveal their willful ignorance and outright contempt of science.

And moreover, they try to corrupt and use the language of what they regard as "true science" to their ends.
I made a post about it here: http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=11&t=257

It seems to me much more dangerous than religion (at least, than religion is today, in the Western world).

The mormon I mentioned earlier argued that if a believe comforts him and helps him be who he wants to be, that's justification enough for holding the belief. How do you guys usually respond to someone like that?

It is justification for holding a belief provisionally, provided that belief doesn't conflict with empirical reality or logic. That's a big caveat though, and new-age beliefs are usually rife with internal contradiction, are usually making claims in clear conflict with well understood empirical reality, and outright deny the validity of all logic.

[thebestofenergy]

Thanks for the compliment

I've been surprised to encounter a few vegans where I live, but the community doesn't seem as vegan friendly as I'd like.

Well, it's still a better situation than mine; I don't know any vegan - except for my mother, but she went vegan with me.
Where I live there's a severe lack of critical thinking, just like in most places.
Being a skeptic and being on the road to become an intellectual, it delivers you a great sense of satisfaction, of happiness that you're better than the average human, and it gives you a strong personality.
But after some time, it starts becoming quite depressing the fact that you don't find people like you; it turns into a sense of loneliness and frustration, desperately trying to find someone that is rational and not a hypocrite. And after a while you give up.
At least that's my experience.

[Crocodilia]

But after some time, it starts becoming quite depressing the fact that you don't find people like you; it turns into a sense of loneliness and frustration, desperately trying to find someone that is rational and not a hypocrite. And after a while you give up.
At least that's my experience.

I can certainly sympathize with that. I hear cringe worthy remarks just about every day. I struggle on deciding between calling someone out or not. There's just no easy way to politely tell someone they're a small-minded, misogynistic and speciesist bigot.