Greetings!

[miniboes]

Hello, I'm Max!

I live in the Netherlands. As I was struggling with being slightly overweight and was trying to improve my diet I stumbled on the documentary Forks Over Knives, then over a month or two went from omnivore to vegetarian to vegan. Although I am mainly concerned with the health and environmental aspects of animal consumption I have begun to care more and more about the moral aspect. I do not pay much attention to where my clothes come from, perhaps that's a point of improvement for the future. I really like cows. They're amazing.

I would refer to myself as an agnostic even though I lean towards atheism and fully agree with most arguments atheist like Richard Dawkins or VeganAtheist make. Although I have no reason to believe in a higher being, sometimes thins in life feels a bit too coincidental. Often very little, unlikely things happen that just make me uncomfortable accepting the complete absence of some sort of order to the randomness that is our existence. Of course I realize these are by no means proof or an even slightly solid argument against atheism. My parents both seem to have little concern for religion. When asked, my father identifies as a Christian but he behaves like an atheist. They are however both meat-eaters and to this day have difficulties with my vegan diet.

Other things about myself, well, I like to learn. About everything of importance, basically. From education to the first world war to climate change, it all fascinates me. Especially how some of the largest problems on earth seem to have the simplest solutions. I love to debate and discuss, as little beats a truly meaningful conversation.

Also, I am bad at talking about myself.
Cheers, Max.

[LogicLover]

Hey Max I'm glad you found "Forks over Knives" and that it helped you! Watching it was a turning point for me too.

Although I have no reason to believe in a higher being, sometimes thins in life feels a bit too coincidental.

What kind of things?

[thebestofenergy]

Welcome!
How is veganism viewed where you live?
And atheism?

[miniboes]

Welcome!
How is veganism viewed where you live?
And atheism?

Veganism seems to barely exist here. The only vegan famous person I could find that I have actually heard of is a guy called Volkert van de Graaf, who is only really known for assassinating an important extremely conservative political leader a while back. I think we consume less fast food than the US, but not that much. Meat consumption is pretty high and it would not surprise me if we consume more dairy. Our cheese is apparently really good. According to Wikipedia roughly 1 in 1000 people is vegan here, which is actually better than I expected.

More than half of the Netherlands is non-religious, in my generation (25 and younger) little Christianity is left and atheism seems to be the norm.

Although I have no reason to believe in a higher being, sometimes thins in life feels a bit too coincidental.

What kind of things?

Well, they are so trivial I forget most of them quite quickly. But today, for example, I was getting assigned to a group of 5 lower grade students to guide them in a project (complicated to explain). Before the groups were announced I made eye contact with one student, thought about if I wanted to have her in my group, and sure enough she was in, randomly selected out of 200 students. Just little unlikely things like that put me off a bit.

As I forgot to mention there's also some existential questions that keep me from being a full-out atheist. For the most part my life feels like a video game or, at different points, a movie and it all seems normal until I start asking myself these questions with no answer. Mostly the question why I am me and nobody else bothers me. The correct answer might be that there is no reason and it's just chance, but that just does not satisfy me. Everything just feels too coincidental.

[Volenta]

Welcome! Great to have yet another dutchman here. It's always great to know that there are other people walking around that have very similar thoughts.

Veganism seems to barely exist here. The only vegan famous person I could find that I have actually heard of is a guy called Volkert van de Graaf, who is only really known for assassinating an important extremely conservative political leader a while back.

It's sad that the most famous vegan in the Netherlands is a murderer—which is extremely far removed from everything most vegans stand for.

I think we consume less fast food than the US, but not that much. Meat consumption is pretty high and it would not surprise me if we consume more dairy. Our cheese is apparently really good.

It's no accident that we are called cheeseheads by outsiders. Especially Gouda cheese is pretty famous around the world.

According to Wikipedia roughly 1 in 1000 people is vegan here, which is actually better than I expected.

I read that it's a pretty old estimation made by the Dutch Society for Veganism. There most likely are much more of us now (since veganism is only growing in popularity).

***

I would refer to myself as an agnostic even though I lean towards atheism and fully agree with most arguments atheist like Richard Dawkins or VeganAtheist make. Although I have no reason to believe in a higher being, sometimes thins in life feels a bit too coincidental. Often very little, unlikely things happen that just make me uncomfortable accepting the complete absence of some sort of order to the randomness that is our existence. Of course I realize these are by no means proof or an even slightly solid argument against atheism.

In principle you are already an atheist by rejecting—or 'not believing' if you like—theistic and deistic claims (which is called weak atheism). It's not necessary to claim that no gods exist (strong atheism). Atheism and agnosticism are mutually compatible because they answer different questions. Agnosticism answers your knowledge position—whether you know god or gods do or do not exist—while atheism answers the question of whether you believe the theistic claims or not (and it has to be one of them, it's pretty black-or-white). The lay public doesn't always understand this, but in strict academic terms it's correctly defined like this.

Maybe a way to deal with the feelings of life being too coincidental is by seeing it as an argument from ignorance. The default position on positive claims should always be non-believe, and since there is not a single shred evidence for anything supernatural (yet), it can easily be rejected without evidence.

Edit: damn typos

[TheVeganAtheist]

Welcome to the forum!

[brimstoneSalad]

Hi miniboes, welcome!

Volenta already covered pretty much what I was going to say about atheism- you are an atheist if you just don't have any belief in a god in particular (even if you don't actively disbelieve).

Also, I should note that MOST atheists believe in the supernatural (or what seems to be such).

Skeptics and more so scientific naturalists reject the supernatural, but not all atheists are skeptics or scientific naturalists. The vast majority of atheists I have known had positive belief in one or more conventionally regarded as 'supernatural' things.

Famous atheists like Richard Dawkins happen to be atheists, in addition to scientific naturalists, skeptics, and sometimes anti-theists (as well as, often, agnostics). Those things don't all automatically come together in every case.

[miniboes]

It's sad that the most famous vegan in the Netherlands is a murderer—which is extremely far removed from everything most vegans stand for.

Interestingly I have a lot of sympathy for the guy. His heart was in the right place; he was a vegan and environmental activist. He has OCD or something alike which might have something to do with what happened. I find some satisfaction in that the strongest man in the world and Peter Dinklage are both vegan.

In principle you are already an atheist by rejecting—or 'not believing' if you like—theistic and deistic claims (which is called weak atheism). It's not necessary to claim that no gods exist (strong atheism). Atheism and agnosticism are mutually compatible because they answer different questions. Agnosticism answers your knowledge position—whether you know god or gods do or do not exist—while atheism answers the question of whether you believe the theistic claims or not (and it has to be one of them, it's pretty black-or-white). The lay public doesn't always understand this, but in strict academic terms it's correctly defined like this.

Maybe a way to deal with the feelings of life being too coincidental is by seeing it as an argument from ignorance. The default position on positive claims should always be non-believe, and since there is not a single shred evidence for anything supernatural (yet), it can easily be rejected without evidence

I suppose you (and brimstoneSalad) are right about that. Besides, it's so much easier to identify as an atheist, it's a clearer message.

Thanks for all warm welcome everyone!

[Volenta]

Interestingly I have a lot of sympathy for the guy. His heart was in the right place; he was a vegan and environmental activist. He has OCD or something alike which might have something to do with what happened. I find some satisfaction in that the strongest man in the world and Peter Dinklage are both vegan.

Well, I get it if you're having an understanding of his motivation, but it was an action that can't be excused. It had an immense impact on the democracy. Freedom of expression shouldn't be taken away just because you are in total disagreement. I think vegans should try to distance themselves from this murderer, to show that vegans aren't all left extremists. Just like we would like moderate Muslims to distance themselves from the fundamental extremists.

[miniboes]

Interestingly I have a lot of sympathy for the guy. His heart was in the right place; he was a vegan and environmental activist. He has OCD or something alike which might have something to do with what happened. I find some satisfaction in that the strongest man in the world and Peter Dinklage are both vegan.

Well, I get it if you're having an understanding of his motivation, but it was an action that can't be excused. It had an immense impact on the democracy. Freedom of expression shouldn't be taken away just because you are in total disagreement. I think vegans should try to distance themselves from this murderer, to show that vegans aren't all left extremists. Just like we would like moderate Muslims to distance themselves from the fundamental extremists.

Ofcourse I'm not saying what he did was right, just that I don't think he was that much of a bad guy. Obviously I can not make a good judgment as I never met him. I suppose you are right that to distance ourselves from him is the proper way to go.