Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

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Cait
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Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by Cait »

I'm a vegan and atheist. Here because of the wonderful Unnatural Vegan. I'm interested in challenging my beliefs and hopefully have some fun with it 😁

Here is my issue. Due to my social circle it has been easier to identify as an intersectionalist, thus i have done so for several years. If i'm honest i only know the very basics and mainly just say i am to stop people jumping on me and calling me racist, sexist ect. I really want to challenge this in myself and my friends. Has anyone had any experience doing this/willing to offer any advice?
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by NonZeroSum »

Cait wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 11:09 am I'm interested in challenging my beliefs and hopefully have some fun with it 😁
Heya Cait,

Oh boy you've come straight to the lions den to have the philosophy you subscribe to questioned, so you know UV and many others here take the position that its best to alienate anyone calling themselves vegan and pro-intersectional so as to force it out of the public face of veganism. I'm currently battling for its inclusion and the exclusion of poor hard-line consequentialist advocacy like leave cats to be killed in shelters, market fundamentalism and men's rights brigade inclusion in this 'market place of ideas.'

My experience of intersectionality is privileging an authentic knowledge of socio-economic experience and how that should feed into social movements that hope to bring about change. There are many pro-intersectional critiques of things like call-out culture and oppression olympics, here are just a few:

Calling In: A Quick Guide on When and How | Sian Ferguson
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/guide-to-calling-in/

Anarchism and the politics of ressentiment | Saul Newman
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/saul-newman-anarchism-and-the-politics-of-ressentiment

Gender Disobedience: Antifeminism and Insurrectionist Non-dialogue | Lilith
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/lilith-gender-disobedience-antifeminism-and-insurrectionist-non-dialogue

2 brief introductions:

Why pro-intersectional veganism is important
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiWOWysJHmc

Intersectional Veganism Made Simple – ModVegan
modvegan.com/intersectional-veganism

And some discussion threads on the forum that all mention intersectionality or more broadly promote the application of social libertarianism.

Activism/Advocacy:

Involving others: from toolkit to ethos for a different kind of democracy by Naomi Millner
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3222

'Nailing Descartes to the wall’: Animal Rights, Veganism and Punk Culture,” by Will Boisseau and Jim Donaghey
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3179

Disturbing Places of Inter-Species Violence That Are Hidden in Plain Sight
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3173

Stef Sanjati Tries Veganism!!! β™‘ Trans Vegans (APV video)
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3169

Food Sovereignty/ Traditionalism – the strongest argument for eating meat (the reason why we need more investment. . .
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3150

Confronting Capitalism: The New Politics of Animal Liberation (APV video)
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3062

Veganish Street Talk!
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3037

Culture clash and cultural sensitivity
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3029

An experience with solidarity activism
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3019


UV's Intersectionality series:

Intersectional veganism (Unnatural vegan video)
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2944

Justice vs. Morality (UV video)
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2957

Alienation and the importance of focused activism (UV video)
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2997


Existential ethics:

Beyond Free and Equal: Subalternity and the Limits of Liberal-Democracy
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3221

Contemporary Anarchism, Animal Liberation and the Implications of New Philosophy by Aragorn Eloff
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3180

The Ethics of Post-Anarchism by Saul Newman
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3190

Moral nihilism and veganism
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2998

Existential questions raised in β€˜Rick and Morty’
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2973


Evolutionary meta-ethics:

Evolutionary Ethics by Robert Wright
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3186

Increasing overall wellbeing
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2896


Politics:

From Confusion to Common Sense: Using Political Ethnography to Understand Social Mobilization in the Brazilian Northeast
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3202
Last edited by NonZeroSum on Wed May 31, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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DarlBundren
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by DarlBundren »

Hi Cait, welcome to the forum. How did you become vegan?

As NonZero said, the topic has been discussed many times on the forum. You may want to take a look at those threads. Personally, I don't think that consequentialism is really compatible with true intersectionalism. Even the idea of oppression, for example, rests on shaky philosophical ground.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

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NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 1:04 pm so you know UV and many others here take the position that its best to alienate anyone calling themselves vegan and pro-intersectional so as to force it out of the public face of veganism.
I don't think that's an accurate characterization. We want less alienation, not more. Sometimes that means supporting the mainstream and saying things that may put off extremists; the extremists are excluding themselves by building echo chambers.

Intersectionality itself IS alienating, that's the problem with it, unlike Christian Veganism or other approaches which can be recognized for what they are (a faith based approach).
If intersectionalists would recognize that one point instead of trying to appropriate veganism for themselves, and then start behaving with more civility to others who don't agree with their faith, that would go a long way to solving the problem (they would also have to stop being racists, that's kind of a deal-breaker for me).

As it is, Intersectionalists are in denial (claiming it's not a belief system :roll: Neo-marxism and critical race theory aren't belief systems?) and have the bad habit of going on witch hunts and alienating people by calling them terrible names like racist (ironic since their belief is founded on a racist ideology) homophobe, etc. for disagreeing with their approach.
I think you understand this, which is why I don't understand why you continue to associate with them.

There is a point at which you have to cut ties with a movement due to irredeemable toxicity, even if they do share a few common goals.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tqXNHTxyIg

On the same line, we would like to push Nazi vegans out of the movement for their bad behavior (although they still aren't banned from coming here to discuss their mistaken views and be corrected).

I don't think anybody here agrees with racism or hating homosexuals, but intersectionalists take it to a harmful extreme which actually fueled the counterculture that put Trump in office (and, in fact, the ideology of intersectionalism is founded upon racism "Critical race theory", so the average intersectionalist scholar has more in common in fundamental world view with White Nationalists than with the average person -- something I find repulsive).
Intersectionality, as a fringe of a fringe, is trying to speak for the mainstream, and I see it as extremely harmful.

If the general face of Christian Veganism was the mentality of Fred Phelps, I'd probably have a similar problem with that; particularly if it appropriated veganism in a way that tried to deny it to others who don't agree with that hateful rhetoric by suggesting that veganism was a Christian fundamentalist thing and that in order to be vegan you had to hate homosexuals (comparable to the evil racism of critical race theory) and believe the world is 5,000 years old (comparable denial of reality to the neo-marxism) too.

These are big asks for people who look into the issue.
If Veganism is linked inextricably to Christian Fundamentalism, nobody is going to want to sign on for homophobia and young Earth creationism to become vegan, and if veganism is linked to Intersectionality nobody is going to want to sign onto racism (critical race theory) and communism to do it either.


Can intersectionalists clean shop and turn what they're doing into something good? Maybe. I don't have faith in that, though, since they won't even take the criticism seriously and they just isolate themselves and call people racist to shut them down. They won't even talk about their sordid foundation, critical race theory, or recognize that their extreme political ideologies need to be toned down to mesh with reality -- they're focused on an all consuming faith in a conspiracy theory and that toppling the system will fix everything somehow.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Hi Cait, welcome!
You can see my more detailed explanation above regarding alienation, but I'll try to answer this with more brevity:
Cait wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 11:09 am If i'm honest i only know the very basics and mainly just say i am to stop people jumping on me and calling me racist, sexist ect. I really want to challenge this in myself and my friends. Has anyone had any experience doing this/willing to offer any advice?
The main point (which is ironic) is that intersectionalism is itself founded on a racist ideology called "Critical race theory".
It basically states that there are different races, and that their brains function so differently that even if everything in society is "colorblind" black people literally aren't capable of functioning in a society developed by white people without special government assistance to prop them up.
The same with "White science"; according to intersectionalists black people literally can't comprehend things like physics. chemistry, etc. and they need special "black science" based on traditional African mythology instead of empirical reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9SiRNibD14

Intersectionality is basically like Scientology: there are different "levels" to it. When you first get into it they try to make it sound reasonable, and then suddenly it's about aliens after you get in deeper. Except for it's some weird racist conspiracy theory destroy society stuff.

Level 1: We're against racism and homophobia etc.!
Level 2: Reparations! Also down with capitalism, we're neo-marxists!
Level 3: Also, Critical Race Theory! Science Must Fall! Down with White Colonialism and White Society!
Level 4: ???

And, according to intersectionalists, it's not a belief system...
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DarlBundren
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by DarlBundren »

brimstoneSalad wrote:ironic since their belief is founded on a racist ideology
Can expand a little bit on this, Brimstone? Do you think it's a racist belief system because of the term race itself? Aren't they talking about the social construction of race?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by brimstoneSalad »

DarlBundren wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 4:14 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:ironic since their belief is founded on a racist ideology
Can expand a little bit on this, Brimstone? Do you think it's a racist belief system because of the term race itself? Aren't they talking about the social construction of race?
"Critical Race Theory" See the post above, I probably posted it right before you asked this.

The idea that black people literally are not capable of functioning in "white" society, or understanding "white" science.
These are the same people, I think, who want Ebonics taught in schools and think black people's brains just aren't wired to speak proper English.
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DarlBundren
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

Post by DarlBundren »

brimstoneSalad wrote: I probably posted it right before you asked this
Yes, I hadn't seen it. Thanks.
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

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brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 3:43 pm Intersectionality itself IS alienating, that's the problem with it, unlike Christian Veganism or other approaches which can be recognized for what they are (a faith based approach).
Why would I accept it is a faith based position when it makes no supernatural metaphysical claims and simply factoring in different numbers into the consequentialist equation about what is necessary to get us to those good ends. If the environment is such that people aren't ready for that change on the macro scale then I'll fall back on ethical nihilism as the best approach, but I'll still make the case that it's necessary based on solid evidence.
There is a point at which you have to cut ties with a movement due to irredeemable toxicity, even if they do share a few common goals.
Agreed, it's entirely possible that some tumblr feminists or other has turned intersectionality into a dead dogma too toxic to associate with.

UV said they draw the line after people just agreeing with the original academic theory, or convincing other liberationists to veganism through intersectionality theory. But at people loudly proclaiming themselves to be vegan and intersectionalist. I'd obviously draw the line at the one woman who got up and started talking about black magic and other such pseudoscience. You have your own line for nazis and pseudo-skepticism which I agree with on the right-wing, only I'd bring it in further visa ve men's rights activist toxicity and other such examples.
I don't think anybody here agrees with racism or hating homosexuals, but intersectionalists take it to a harmful extreme which actually fueled the counterculture that put Trump in office (and, in fact, the ideology of intersectionalism is founded upon racism "Critical race theory", so the average intersectionalist scholar has more in common in fundamental world view with White Nationalists than with the average person -- something I find repulsive).
I'd have to post an academic summary of mainstream critical race theory and it's implications so we could discuss it before I could tell you how much I agree with it and whether I think your comments are fair, UVs next video will deal with the worst extremes I'm sure.
If Veganism is linked inextricably to Christian Fundamentalism, nobody is going to want to sign on for homophobia and young Earth creationism to become vegan, and if veganism is linked to Intersectionality nobody is going to want to sign onto racism (critical race theory) and communism to do it either.
I agree that there should be many acceptable ways of identifying as a vegan from health/dietary, to environmental, to ethical, without getting chastised for not doing enough, when going vegan is already so much better than not. What you're talking about is whether intersectionality takes without giving, I have my qualms about the consumerist holier than thou subculture and you don't like what you perceive to be deontological or faith based and we both don't like the no chicken first step guy bashing veganism all the time to make their argument.
they're focused on an all consuming faith in a conspiracy theory and that toppling the system will fix everything somehow.
That's a grave twisting of the definition of conspiracy and something the pseudo-skeptic community is fond of doing, a synthesis of studies to bring into focus all aspects of socio-economic life through game theory models, complex systems theory, intersectionality theory and an epistemology of ignorance is not a conspiracy theory, we just disagree on methodology.
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Re: Hello! RE intersectionality amongst vegan peer group

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NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm Why would I accept it is a faith based position when it makes no supernatural metaphysical claims and simply factoring in different numbers into the consequentialist equation about what is necessary to get us to those good ends.
It's a matter of how you came to those numbers, and the degree of confidence in them which exceeds that which is warranted based on the evidence.

Neo-marxist or communist beliefs are ultimately faith based, because we don't have good examples of these systems working, or evidence based theory behind them; it's modeling based on speculation.

Wanting a European style socialism is much less so, since we have examples of this, but we have to take into account the effect of that on commerce using mainstream economic theory (considering the economic problems Europe is suffering from).
Supporting basic income is not faith based, since there's broad and growing support for that among economists and growing evidence for its social utility.

There are sensible positions to hold moving in that direction, but the end goal of taking down capitalism is over-reaching. The APVs of this world are stark raving mad in their certainty; they put the pope to shame when it comes to faith in their ideologies.

Faith is the difference between degree of certainty and what the evidence actually shows -- the evidence as interpreted by unbiased experts, not by wishful thinking and personal bias.
NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm Agreed, it's entirely possible that some tumblr feminists or other has turned intersectionality into a dead dogma too toxic to associate with.
Do you agree it's better to err on the side of avoiding unnecessary labels when this may be the case?

Veganism has substantial cultural capital, but I don't fault Matt Ball for disagreeing about that. That's a tough call and I might have to defend my usage of the word to him if challenged.

Think of it like Occam's razor.
Vegan beats Intersectional Vegan.

The latter has more to justify, and if you can't show it's doing more good than harm overall, it's better to abandon the label and just work toward the good parts. Hopefully following the evidence to its limits and not beyond with faith.

NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm I'd obviously draw the line at the one woman who got up and started talking about black magic and other such pseudoscience.
Are you versed in Critical Race Theory?
I feel like you may be overlooking the more irrational foundations because you agree with the Marxist ones.
NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm You have your own line for nazis and pseudo-skepticism which I agree with on the right-wing, only I'd bring it in further visa ve men's rights activist toxicity and other such examples.
Unfortunately Men's rights has utility, a meaningful niche, and it's hard to replace it with a better term/movement. Men need representation of their interests.
Of course they need to clean house, but I don't see an alternative.
Equalists may do it, the problem is that may be deceptive.

Nazis and Intersectionalists are both coming from a fundamentally racist and pseudoscience based foundation.
It's like trying to find a legitimate use for chiropracty. There is a contingent of reform minded chiropractors who reject subluxation (which is very commendable) and want to enter the world of evidence based medicine, but there are already physical therapists there occupying the niche they would propose the fill. They have no use. Why even bother? The field should just die.

That's the difference between MRM and Intersectionality. MRM has at least the potential to fill a useful niche. The only legitimate uses of intersectionality are older than the term itself and just refer to multivariate analysis.
Beyond that we're either talking about the racist pseudoscience of "critical race theory", or we're talking about communism. The latter already has a more fitting and less alienating word.

I don't have such a problem with communist vegans as the intersectional ones. Communist vegan makes it clear there's a political ideology aside from veganism, and one could easily imagine a capitalist vegan too. It's also far less unreasonable and not fundamentally racist like intersectionality is.

The only reason to be an intersectionalist today is if you're into the whole "science must fall" racist pseudoscience.
Otherwise, the term should be abandoned for higher ground which is more respectable and doesn't drag veganism into that nonsense.
NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm I'd have to post an academic summary of mainstream critical race theory and it's implications so we could discuss it before I could tell you how much I agree with it and whether I think your comments are fair, UVs next video will deal with the worst extremes I'm sure.
I don't think an obfuscated academic summary (which would be pages long) would be necessary. That would be like posting Dianetics in full text in order to discuss Scientology.
We're dealing with a field that is fundamentally deceptive and dishonest (and must be in order to hide how wicked and racist it is from the general public). Please don't be distracted by academic apologia.
It's just like the new wave of white nationalists who try to claim it's all about "preserving culture" which sounds to many like a good thing, but then you get into it and it's just good old fashioned racism after all.

Assume what I said of CRT is true and accurate: is that not something we should not only reject but also fight against?
NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm What you're talking about is whether intersectionality takes without giving, I have my qualms about the consumerist holier than thou subculture and you don't like what you perceive to be deontological or faith based and we both don't like the no chicken first step guy bashing veganism all the time to make their argument.
I don't have much of a problem with Matt Ball, although I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions. That's a question of evidence; we could have a reasonable discussion.
Intersectionality is an issue of ideology and a fundamental difference in methodology from anything in science or philosophy.
It's not that I don't like faith based positions, it's that they can not really be argued.

NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm That's a grave twisting of the definition of conspiracy and something the pseudo-skeptic community is fond of doing,
It isn't, though. There's the claim that all economists are either complete morons, or they're paid off. There's the claim about all of the politicians being paid off, Sandersian conspiracies. There are conspiracies upon conspiracies, up to the racist patriarchal system that they claim is being deliberately perpetuated by people who benefit from it. Even science itself; you can't trust anybody, they're all out to keep the revolution down.
NonZeroSum wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2017 6:08 pm a synthesis of studies to bring into focus all aspects of socio-economic life through game theory models, complex systems theory, intersectionality theory and an epistemology of ignorance is not a conspiracy theory, we just disagree on methodology.
Game theory is fine, multivariate analysis is great, "intersectionality" is insane: it's founded on racist pesudoscience, and it burns down anything it touches.
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