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onlyifchased
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Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:49 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Hi everyone!

Post by onlyifchased »

Hello all, I was referred to this forum by "The Unnatural Vegan" on Youtube. :) Seems like a cool place!

I've been vegetarian for about two years, aside from a brief foray into eating certain types of seafood. For most of that time I worked at transitioning to full veganism, but would always backslide on dairy/eggs when staying with friends, eating out at restaurants I didn't pick, etc. Got really frustrated and started to slide back into disordered eating habits, so I'm back to just ovo-lacto vegetarianism and I'm happy with that for now. I'm vegetarian to reduce the suffering of sentient creatures as much as I can, and I'm looking forward to exploring that notion more with the folks here on this forum! :)
theearthchildx
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Diet: Vegan

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by theearthchildx »

I also came here from Unnatural vegans channel :)
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EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 3022
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by EquALLity »

Hi, welcome to the forum! :D What inspired you to go vegetarian?
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
onlyifchased
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:49 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by onlyifchased »

Step 1: Pick up a book on Buddhism, which discusses vegetarianism from that perspective and piques my interest
Step 2: Set out to research vegetarianism, learn about the environmental harm from beef, the intelligence and treatment of farm animals, etc.
Step 3: Try out VB6 (vegan before 6) as popularized by Mark Bittman
Step 4: Go vegan within a month of step 1
Step 5: Get frustrated with how difficult full-time veganism is
Step 6: Read Peter Singer and learn about utilitarian ethics, watch the Unnatural Vegan and learn about tentative veganism
Step 7: Vacillate between full-time veganism and "vegan at home" "vegan except XX" etc. for two years while mentally beating yourself up constantly and alienating family and friends with your inconsistent dietary habits
Step 8: "OK fine I'm just gonna be a vegetarian."
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brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Welcome!

Maybe we can offer some tips on reducing. Do you mostly eat vegan at home? Sometimes that's a good way for people to go: vegan at home, lacto-ovo vegetarian when out.
onlyifchased
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:49 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by onlyifchased »

Thanks bimstoneSalad, that might be helpful :)

I do eat mostly vegan at home, but I struggle with being totally vegan at home while still being ovo-lacto veg when out. I've found if I go for a while without eating dairy/eggs, I get very ill when I do eat them out of the home. We do not go out to eat often enough for me to keep up my "tolerance."

I am down to about 1-2 dozen certified humane eggs per month, and yogurt a few days per week. I also buy whey protein powder, which is a castoff of the dairy industry and not a profit driver at all, so I don't feel too bad about that.

I struggle a bit with butter too. I would rather use real certified humane butter than palm oil from an ethical perspective, and all the replacements that taste remotely like butter use palm oil...
kelly888
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:28 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by kelly888 »

i also learned about this site from unnatural vegan. so cool, people really seem to be friendly here. you all are not talking bad about people who are not vegan. that is what some vegan youtuber´s are doing. this seems to be a great community to belong to :)
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brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

onlyifchased wrote: I do eat mostly vegan at home, but I struggle with being totally vegan at home while still being ovo-lacto veg when out. I've found if I go for a while without eating dairy/eggs, I get very ill when I do eat them out of the home. We do not go out to eat often enough for me to keep up my "tolerance."
I don't think that's normal. You might have some kind of intolerance to casein or lactose or even a mild allergy to dairy, and you only notice it when you eat it infrequently (because you're slowly better and then suddenly feel much worse).
It's less likely to be caused by eggs.

Maybe you can try cutting out dairy at home and when out, and just being vegan at home and ovo-vegetarian when out. If something is causing you to get noticeably ill when you eat it infrequently, that should be a red flag.

It could be the egg, but probably not. If the egg is still affecting you when you eat it infrequently, try switching and eat vegan at home, then lacto-vegetarian when you're out.

onlyifchased wrote:I also buy whey protein powder, which is a castoff of the dairy industry and not a profit driver at all, so I don't feel too bad about that.
Have you tried any vegan protein powders?
onlyifchased wrote:I struggle a bit with butter too. I would rather use real certified humane butter than palm oil from an ethical perspective, and all the replacements that taste remotely like butter use palm oil...
What are you using butter for?
Olive oil is usually a good replacement for pasta or garlic bread, and light pan frying. Canola oil is usually a good option in baking.
Liquid oils, being lower in saturated fat, are always going to be superior to solid oils.

If you need a solid oil, coconut oil is a slightly better option than butter in terms of health (and probably a better option compared to palm oil).
onlyifchased
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Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:49 pm
Diet: Vegetarian

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by onlyifchased »

brimstoneSalad wrote: I don't think that's normal. You might have some kind of intolerance to casein or lactose or even a mild allergy to dairy, and you only notice it when you eat it infrequently (because you're slowly better and then suddenly feel much worse).
It's less likely to be caused by eggs.

Maybe you can try cutting out dairy at home and when out, and just being vegan at home and ovo-vegetarian when out. If something is causing you to get noticeably ill when you eat it infrequently, that should be a red flag.

It could be the egg, but probably not. If the egg is still affecting you when you eat it infrequently, try switching and eat vegan at home, then lacto-vegetarian when you're out.
Yes I agree that this is weird. My doctor said the symptoms correspond loosely to lactose intolerance, but that doesn't explain the egg thing, or why I have trouble still with very low lactose foods like hard cheeses. I have always had a touchy stomach so I suspect that I might never really know why this happens.

The same thing happened when I was first experimenting with "vegan before 6" - infrequently eating meat was even worse than dairy/eggs. It's been additional incentive to remain meat-free, on top of the fact that meat now seems disgusting to me. I wish I felt the same way about dairy and eggs, but I just can't seem to feel revulsion for them, and still craved them even after months of avoiding them completely.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Have you tried any vegan protein powders?
Yes! I use peanut and pea based protein powders in all applications other than my post workout shake. I've tried hemp and rice powders and don't care for them personally. Whey is still the tastiest (to me) and most bio-available protein, and in studies seems to confer an advantage in muscle building and retention over all other post workout shakes. So it is hard for me as a weightlifter who competes to give that advantage up. This article about protein powder also explains pretty well why I think protein powder should go to the bottom of the list in terms of changes to make to my lifestyle for harm reduction: https://powersmoothie.org/ethics/
brimstoneSalad wrote: What are you using butter for?
Olive oil is usually a good replacement for pasta or garlic bread, and light pan frying. Canola oil is usually a good option in baking.
Liquid oils, being lower in saturated fat, are always going to be superior to solid oils.

If you need a solid oil, coconut oil is a slightly better option than butter in terms of health (and probably a better option compared to palm oil).
I love whole wheat toast with butter, and pancakes with a tiny pat of butter on top. I contemplated this question for a while, though. I'm not ready to give up butter 100%, but I think I could stick to only using it in applications where the taste really seems essential to the dish... That would be healthier too, as you've wisely pointed out.

Thank you for engaging with me on this, I appreciate the back and forth with someone who genuinely wants to help. I hope you do not mind my arguing, it helps me to see my own bullshit in black and white and work on whittling away my weaker arguments to myself to avoid living a life more in line with my ethics. :)
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brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Hi everyone!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

onlyifchased wrote: Yes I agree that this is weird. My doctor said the symptoms correspond loosely to lactose intolerance, but that doesn't explain the egg thing, or why I have trouble still with very low lactose foods like hard cheeses. I have always had a touchy stomach so I suspect that I might never really know why this happens.
Considering digestive issues cause so many problems and are so well correlated to ill health, maybe avoiding eggs and dairy (for you, with your particular issues) would be wise for those reasons as well.
onlyifchased wrote: It's been additional incentive to remain meat-free, on top of the fact that meat now seems disgusting to me. I wish I felt the same way about dairy and eggs, but I just can't seem to feel revulsion for them, and still craved them even after months of avoiding them completely.
What kind of replacements have you tried? Our bodies don't really crave specific nutrients as linked to foods so much (e.g. an iron deficient person might crave ice -- that doesn't make sense). It's probably a matter of psychology and taste addiction.

Have you tried tofu scramble with black salt? Nutritional yeast? Any vegan cheeses, or non-dairy milks?
onlyifchased wrote: Yes! I use peanut and pea based protein powders in all applications other than my post workout shake. I've tried hemp and rice powders and don't care for them personally.
What about them do you not like? Do you have problems with soy?

How about beans as a protein source? Have you tried mock meats?

Studies demonstrate that there's no real benefit to ridiculous amounts of protein for strength training.

Are you sure your consumption patterns are evidence based, rather than habit, or a sport myth?
http://www.eatright.org/resource/fitness/sports-and-performance/fueling-your-workout/protein-and-the-athlete
Recommendations

While protein needs of both endurance and power athletes are greater than that of non-athletes, they're not as high as commonly perceived.

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, Dietitians of Canada and the American College of Sports Medicine recommend the following for power and endurance athletes, based on body weight:

Power athletes (strength or speed): 1.2 to 1.7 grams/kilogram a day
Endurance athletes: 1.2 to 1.4 grams/kilogram a day
This is a pretty good article debunking in detail the 1g/lb myth of protein for body builders:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/
I recommend reading the whole thing, but here's the point:
Based on the sound research, many review papers have concluded 0.82g/lb is the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). This recommendation often includes a double 95% confidence level, meaning they took the highest mean intake at which benefits were still observed and then added two standard deviations to that level to make absolutely sure all possible benefits from additional protein intake are utilized. As such, this is already overdoing it and consuming 1g/lb ‘to be safe’ doesn’t make any sense. 0.82g/lb is already very safe.
onlyifchased wrote: Whey is still the tastiest (to me) and most bio-available protein, and in studies seems to confer an advantage in muscle building and retention over all other post workout shakes.
If you can link me to what studies you're talking about, I'd be glad to look at them, but it's really irrelevant because even if that is true for some other study participants if you have digestive issues with dairy, the whey is probably holding you back.
You should see overall better health and performance on a diet more suited to you.

Your protein consumption is probably already in overkill anyway, and not the limiting factor in your performance.

Jack Norris has a very comprehensive article on weightlifting:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/weightlifting

He examines the evidence surrounding protein, as well as useful supplements you may want to consider.
onlyifchased wrote: So it is hard for me as a weightlifter who competes to give that advantage up.
It's probably not actually an advantage for you if you're having issues with dairy.
Creatine supplementation and others would probably be more useful: and cutting out the eggs and dairy so your digestive system functions better.
onlyifchased wrote:This article about protein powder also explains pretty well why I think protein powder should go to the bottom of the list in terms of changes to make to my lifestyle for harm reduction: https://powersmoothie.org/ethics/
Generally true of cheap byproducts. It's an issue of economics; it's a matter that would require some research to determine the actual magnitude of effects.
onlyifchased wrote: I love whole wheat toast with butter, and pancakes with a tiny pat of butter on top.
Have you tried the daiya vegan cream cheese? It's made from coconut, and spreads pretty nicely for toast applications. You might like it.

I've found in the past that coconut oil works well on pancakes, and doesn't have a strong taste.
onlyifchased wrote: Thank you for engaging with me on this, I appreciate the back and forth with someone who genuinely wants to help. I hope you do not mind my arguing, it helps me to see my own bullshit in black and white and work on whittling away my weaker arguments to myself to avoid living a life more in line with my ethics. :)
No problem. :D
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