Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

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Lauradf36
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Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by Lauradf36 »

I'm Laura.
I'm 18.
I'm from Australia.
I'm not a vegan, but I'm very interested in ethical discussions, and most of all to find out in a peaceful way why vegans believe what they do; what influences this; and why this is increasing in popular culture today.

I'm happy I have found this forum of hopefully peaceful and respectful discussion.
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thebestofenergy
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by thebestofenergy »

Welcome Laura.

Glad to hear you have an open mind about this topic :)

Feel free to open a thread starting a discussion, ask/say anything you have in mind.
You might also want to check the Vegan vs Non-Vegan Debates section of the forum.
For evil to prevail, good people must stand aside and do nothing.
Lauradf36
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by Lauradf36 »

Thank you! I have created a post on the Vegan vs Non-Vegan Debates section, so hopefully that will start the conversation.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by PsYcHo »

Hello!

A Christian and a meat-eater? Welcome to the lions' den. (It's cool though. The lions here mostly like tofu. ;) )

Welcome!
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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Lauradf36
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by Lauradf36 »

Indeed. I would say Christianity is one of my main reasons for not being a vegan, although I may do a full on post on that at some point.

And you're a Pescatarian. That's someone who only eats fish, right? So how do you justify that one? Curious!
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PsYcHo
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by PsYcHo »

Lauradf36 wrote:Indeed. I would say Christianity is one of my main reasons for not being a vegan, although I may do a full on post on that at some point.
Interesting. Is it the part about man having dominion over the animals? (I must point out it doesn't say you have to eat them though. ;) )
Lauradf36 wrote: And you're a Pescatarian. That's someone who only eats fish, right? So how do you justify that one? Curious!
Environmentally they are not as harmful as other animals that are farm raised. As far as the ethical reason, I justify it by reasoning since fish eat their own young, I'm simply saving many more baby fish than the adult fish I consume. :roll: (Yeah, not everyone agrees with that one, but I don't eat animals that would be missed by their mothers..) If we all agreed on everything it would be pretty boring!
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
Lauradf36
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by Lauradf36 »

Getting into it already, I will have to do a full post soon haha.

I suppose my main reason is Genesis 1:26, yes - Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

But not just the "rule over" bit. Most importantly, I believe (and my Church believes) that humans are different & separate to animals because we are "made in God's image".
This means we have a conscience, we know right from wrong, are rational, and are overall more intelligent than animals. (Not that animals are unintelligent. But that humans are more intelligent. If that makes sense.)

The Pescatarian argument is interesting! I imagine that would difficult to argue on pure vegan forums. So you don't eat animals that would be missed by their mothers. Are there other animals that come under that category? Birds, for example?

Wait - do pescatarians eat eggs?

Thanks for the reply! :)
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Lauradf36 wrote:Indeed. I would say Christianity is one of my main reasons for not being a vegan, although I may do a full on post on that at some point.
If you value Christianity, saying something like this doesn't make it look very good.

It can be great and wonderful when people take their beliefs as inspiration to do good and become better people, abstaining from harm to others.
But it's disappointing when people use their beliefs as an excuse to do harm to others, finding some rationalization in scripture (you do know scripture can be used to rationalize stoning gays too, if you're set on it?).

Ask yourself if you are are being a good emissary by using Christianity as an excuse to harm animals, and if that's the best way to represent the love of Christ to others. Or, if perhaps that practicing veganism and abstaining from harm to innocent creatures would be a better way to represent Christ's love to your fellow human being.

There was apparently a history of vegetarianism in Early Christianity. It was apparently mostly abandoned as Christians adopted hedonistic ways and the religion was co-opted by the state and used to justify wars of domination and crusades.

But whether you believe Jesus was a vegetarian (or pescetarian, as some believe) or not (if you know your scripture, you remember the turning of the temple, and his protest against animal sacrifice), and whether Jesus would have disagreed with killing gays or not, your behavior every day represents Christianity to those you bear witness to. You can choose every day by your behavior whether you want to represent it as the likes of Fred Phelps with hate and rationalization for cruel behavior turning people away from Christ, or with compassion and love more befitting the image of Christ that people are more likely to be drawn to.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Lauradf36 wrote: I suppose my main reason is Genesis 1:26, yes - Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Rule as in a king over his subjects, or god over man.

Does a good king rule over his subjects by killing them for food without need (we no longer need to kill animals, by the way), or does he rule with mercy and compassion?
Does God treat man as such?

Perhaps we all only deserve to be treated only as well by our rulers as we treat those we rule over. I seem to remember some proverbs to that end.

I guess you stopped reading on that line, though. This is a great example of somebody cherry picking the bible to justify bad behavior, when in the very next line God makes clear that the ideal food for man was plants, and this was his ultimate plan.

Genesis 1:28-30
28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.…

As too is it in the kingdom of heaven on Earth:

Isaiah 11:5-7

5Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
7Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.…


God temporarily permitted man to kill and eat certain animals as a compromise, so that he may survive only.
We no longer need to kill animals to survive, and the cruelty we impose on them for our gluttony is unparalleled in human history.

Lauradf36 wrote: But not just the "rule over" bit. Most importantly, I believe (and my Church believes) that humans are different & separate to animals because we are "made in God's image".
This means we have a conscience, we know right from wrong, are rational, and are overall more intelligent than animals. (Not that animals are unintelligent. But that humans are more intelligent. If that makes sense.)
Which endows us with moral responsibility to treat all of "God's creatures" as such with kindness and respect, and to not harm them without dire need.
And today, we need not harm them for food.

Of course most humans are more intelligent than most non-human animals. Just as some men are more intelligent, more wise, more rational, than others.
Does this give a smarter man the right to kill the less intelligent for his gluttony/enjoyment?
Killing for survival is one thing. Killing for the pleasure of taste when you could eat plants instead is another entirely.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Non-Vegan Ready to discuss!

Post by PsYcHo »

Lauradf36 wrote: I suppose my main reason is Genesis 1:26, yes - Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

But not just the "rule over" bit. Most importantly, I believe (and my Church believes) that humans are different & separate to animals because we are "made in God's image".
This means we have a conscience, we know right from wrong, are rational, and are overall more intelligent than animals. (Not that animals are unintelligent. But that humans are more intelligent. If that makes sense.)
The issue here isn't that humans and animals are separate. You can maintain your religious beliefs with or without actually eating the animals, right?
If there were a passage that said "And lo, on Fridays ye shall have the steak special at Applebees, and woe be upon him that does not put butter upon thy baked potato" it would be a different story. ;)
Lauradf36 wrote: The Pescatarian argument is interesting! I imagine that would difficult to argue on pure vegan forums.
I'm sure plenty of Vegans don't like that I eat fish, but compared to the harm caused by what I used to eat, it is a big improvement. The Vegans on this forum are pretty sensible, which admittedly was a bit of a shock to me at first. I thought they were all militant types who yelled at people who ate meat. Mostly here people will try to use logic to give you different reasons on why you shouldn't eat it. Not just "MEAT IS MURDER!", more "have you seen this video on cattle farms?". If you are open minded, it may or may not change your mind.
Lauradf36 wrote: So you don't eat animals that would be missed by their mothers. Are there other animals that come under that category? Birds, for example?
Wait - do pescatarians eat eggs?
Have you ever tried to take an egg from a nest/ or "save" a baby bird that fell from a tree? Those birds care a LOT!
I myself avoid eggs mainly because of the egg farms. Horrible conditions. But I am not adverse to eating free range eggs.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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