Introducing myself to the forums

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Cyclone
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Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 2:13 pm
Diet: Meat-Eater

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

To Jaywalker: Ok fair enough, that's a great point. Let me rephrase that: Is it morally wrong for me to eat animal products even thought it is my own choice, I have and still am trying to lessen the amount of meat I eat, I know the things that are happening behind the scenes (and the consequences I might cause), and that I do think that the animal industry is fucked up(sorry for the strong language :P)), and do fully respect and value the choices of other diets? I personally think that is not wrong.
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brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Cyclone wrote:Let me rephrase that: Is it morally wrong for me to eat animal products even thought it is my own choice,
It's a choice you make which harms others, that's why it's wrong.

If it wasn't a choice -- such as if you were a lion and you had to eat meat to live -- then it wouldn't be morally wrong, since it would be justified for survival.
We see the same thing with people who are stranded without food, and they kill and eat each other. Not even cannibalism is wrong if you don't have a choice, since it's justified.

Only choices can be morally wrong or right. If there's no choice, the moral question is irrelevant.

Likewise, if it doesn't harm others, it's also not morally wrong: morality is based on consequences.

I think you admit that it is both 1. Harmful to others and 2. A choice (you can be healthy without meat)
So based on that, how could it be anything but morally wrong?

Cyclone wrote:I have and still am trying to lessen the amount of meat I eat
That's great. If you are trying your best to be better, you are probably a good person. My point was that you shouldn't give up when you're half done.
It takes some people longer to quit eating meat than others, like quitting smoking.

The important difference which tells us if you're a good person or not is if you're trying.

There may be a man who loves smoking, he knows it hurts others and himself, but he doesn't want to quit. This is an indication of being a bad person.

Another man may hate smoking, because he knows it harms others and himself, and he really wants to quit. But because he's addicted to the cigarettes, it may take him some time, or a few tries, to finally succeed. As long as he doesn't give up and he keeps trying, this is an indication of being a good person.

I just hope you're the second kind of person (who tries), instead of the first (who doesn't want to change).
Cyclone wrote:I know the things that are happening behind the scenes (and the consequences I might cause), and that I do think that the animal industry is fucked up(sorry for the strong language :P)), and do fully respect and value the choices of other diets? I personally think that is not wrong.
As long as you're trying to quit, you may be a good person despite still doing something wrong, because you're trying not to. It means you're a good person at heart, and you just have some addiction, etc. It will take some time to overcome it and become the best person you can be. Just don't give up, and you'll always succeed (slow and steady).

But if you are decided that you will never ever go vegetarian, and you WANT to eat meat, and you make the choice to eat it and don't want to stop, then that's a different situation. It's wrong because it's a harmful choice that you want to do despite knowing it harms others and is unnecessary for you, and if you don't want to quit, that's an indication of a selfish character.
I don't think that's the kind of person you want to be, since you seem compassionate. I hope you'll try your best, and have a goal to be vegetarian some day as you continue to reduce. :)
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Jaywalker
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:58 pm
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Jaywalker »

I would give you credit for trying to become good, way to go! You're doing much better than most people.

You can try to calculate the impact you have on the world, weigh the good you do against the bad, and see if you're actually a force for good. We can't say for certain without knowing you, but I personally assume you're not exactly there yet (others may disagree). It's ultimately about effect, not intent.

But as brimstoneSalad says, intent shows character.
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Cyclone
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 2:13 pm
Diet: Meat-Eater

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

Let me be completely honest with you guys, I was really hesitant to join this forum for 3 reasons:
1) I didn't know how much extremism I was going to face
2) I didn't know how people would react to my opinions about meat
3) I didn't want to be judged for my choices

I can see that #2 is kinda obvious already. #3 on the other hand... I knew I was going to get criticised at some scale, but I do understand all the points that people are making against meat but damn I was not expecting such lectures and "become vegan or you are a bad human". That was with all respect said, and I do accept and understand that opinion, but as I accept your choices, can't you accept my choices as my own; I know most of the consequenses of eating it, but is it really that important to you that you have to keep repeating that I should go full vegan.
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Cyclone
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Diet: Meat-Eater

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

I would like to apologize for any harmful thoughts and displeasement of my straightforward way of speaking, I'm kinda in a bad mood ATM and would just like to be accepted into this community as I am :(
Minos
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Location: Czech republic

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Minos »

Cyclone wrote:I just want to ask: Do you guys think I'm a lesser human being for my choices?
Your dietary choice (if that is what are you referring to) doesn't make you better or lesser human being.

I'm not here to judge anyone and even if I were I wouldn't have any right to do so. I'm glad and happy that you are curious and open minded. Yes, I hope that you consider facts being given to you and make more compassionate, environmentally friendlier and healthier choice, but my intention is not to force you. It's your right to make it freely.

If how good or bad person would be measured by impact of their diet choices on environment I would be far worse person than you. Why? Because I've been meat eater for 30 years and vegan just for 1 year. That is at least twice the damage you could have done.
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Cyclone
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

I have just two words for you Minos: Thank you
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Jaywalker
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Jaywalker »

Anyone is welcome on this forum as far as I know, there are other meat eaters here too. You won't be pestered with demands to become vegan, but you should be prepared to defend your views, if you choose to engage. Veganism is kind of the main thing of this forum, so it's only natural some of us are going to come off strong on that topic. Don't let that dissuade you from discussion. :D

I also know many meat eaters who I accept as friends. I can't force them to change but I can explain why I want them to change. They still eat meat and we're still friends.
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Cyclone
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Diet: Meat-Eater

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

I know that veganism is the main thing on this forum, yes, and the main reason I wanted to join was to learn more about it.
I would also like to apologize to brimstoneSalad for my very strict policy on not becoming full vegan. The message I tried to get accross was that I do not feel like going full vegan right now but my mind might and probably will change to some direction at some point of my life :) Sorry for the inconvenience dude :)
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brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Cyclone, you are accepted here, but we are trying to encourage you to strive to be better. As ALL of us should strive to be better.
Cyclone wrote:3) I didn't want to be judged for my choices
I can understand that. It feels bad to be judged, and to realize we are doing something harmful.
Almost nobody wants to be judged for their choices.

Rapists don't want to be judged, dictators don't want to be judged, murderers don't want to be judged, pedophiles don't want to be judged, thieves don't want to be judged, smokers don't want to be judged, etc.

No matter what wrong thing we're doing, small or large, from theft to smoking all the way to murder, people don't like to be judged.

But we really need to keep an open mind and accept the judgement of others, so we can improve ourselves and become better people.

If I'm doing something bad -- like driving a hummer and wasting a lot of gas -- somebody should criticize me for that, and I should choose a better vehicle.
We all do wrong things sometimes, and since we usually can't see them ourselves, we need other people to criticize us and encourage us to change to become better people.

Cyclone wrote:as I accept your choices, can't you accept my choices as my own;
A thief can say "as I accept your choices to not steal things, can't you accept my choices to steal things as my own?"
And a serial killer can say "as I accept your choices to not murder people, can't you accept my choices to murder people as my own?"
A smoker can say "as I accept your choices not to smoke, can't you accept my choices to smoke?"

We can accept that this is your choice. It's a choice, but it's a bad choice. We're trying to help you understand why.

We're not forcing anything on you. You have the choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing. It's your choice, just as it is your choice to be a good person or a bad person.

If somebody chooses to be a bad person, we can do nothing but try to persuade that person to change his or her mind.
If your choice is you want to eat meat, to steal, to smoke, to murder people, etc. Those are all bad choices you can make (it doesn't mean they're all the same level of bad, some are more bad than others, but all are bad).
We're trying to persuade you to change your choice, but we can not force you.

It doesn't mean we won't be friendly to you if you make the wrong choices -- that doesn't help anybody -- but we will always try to encourage you to make the right one.

As long as you're trying to make the right choice (like a smoker trying to quit smoking) we will have a lot of respect for you, and support you in that.
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