Introducing myself to the forums

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brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
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Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Cyclone wrote: Back to the point: I know that by changing meat for other products I would help (atleast to some extent) but the problem that I've tlaked about with other people also is that the meat will be produced even if i don't buy it, so you cant really talk about me about ending suffering that has already been done.
That's not true; it's a misconception of economics. Supply adjusts dynamically with demand. They will not just continue producing the same amount of meat and throwing away the meat you do not buy. If you buy less meat, the store will order less meat from the butcher, who will get less meat from the slaughter house, which will slaughter fewer animals and order fewer from the farmer, who will raise and breed fewer animals.

As you buy meat, you increase the demand, and more suffering occurs. If you don't buy meat, they will produce less meat. This happens on a global scale, where as people in the West eat less meat, the farms and slaughterhouses are scaling down production.
Cyclone wrote: And yes, I yet again understand your point about changing slowly, and I know that human taste does change overtime... But what if I simply don't want to go full vegan? Are my opinions and choices bothering you somehow? :c(no, that was not passsive-aggressive, just asking)
They are not just opinions and personal choices. By purchasing meat, you're causing harm to non-human animals and human beings too.
Have you heard that animal agriculture is a major cause of global warming? It also wastes huge amounts of resources in this world with a growing population.

If we're talking about something like homosexuality, it's a matter in your private sex life which doesn't harm anybody else. Conservatives should have no place to criticize that, since it doesn't hurt them. It's harmless, and disagreement is a matter of religious opinion.

But issues like this are very different, because your behavior harms others. Demonstrably so.

Consider an analogy:
Is it a personal choice for somebody to rape? What if that person simply doesn't not want to stop raping? Can you criticize such behavior? Are his opinions and choices as a rapist bothering you?

Even if he does not rape you personally, perhaps his behavior harms others, and as a person with moral concern for the well being of others, you would ask him to stop raping, and try to teach him a better way to live.
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EquALLity
I am God
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by EquALLity »

Hi, welcome to the forum! :)
Cyclone wrote:I'm not really comfortable with mentioning my real name yet.
Hahaha, do you think we're going to hunt you down or something? :P
Cyclone wrote:Anyways, I live I'm 16 years old and live in Finland. I came an (agnostic) atheist about 1,5 years ago.
I'm a teenager also. It's pretty interesting to me how many teenagers there are on this forum.
I wonder if it's because teenagers are just more likely to use the Internet, or if there is a really high percentage of young atheists.

1/3 millennials (ages 18-34) are not religiously affiliated at all. I speculate that the number of non-religious teenagers is higher.

Are there any reasons in particular why you are opposed to eventually going full vegan?
Do your parents know you're an atheist?
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
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Cyclone
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

EquALLity wrote: Are there any reasons in particular why you are opposed to eventually going full vegan?
Do your parents know you're an atheist?
Yes, my parents do know that I'm an atheist as it is in finnish law to get your parents permission if you want to leave church before you're 18

And yes, even thought brimstoneSalad is talking a lot of good and truthfull things about switching to veganism, its my personal choice to eat whatever I want. I know full well what I eat, how its's prduced.
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Cyclone
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Diet: Meat-Eater

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

I need to go to school, will answer whenever I have time
Minos
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Diet: Reducetarian
Location: Czech republic

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Minos »

Cyclone wrote:I like to talk openmindedly about opinions and views on different subjects and so on. I also am eager to learn new things and facts and opinions etc.
Welcome :] It's great to see that you are open-minded despite your young age.
Cyclone wrote:Back to the point: I know that by changing meat for other products I would help (atleast to some extent) but the problem that I've tlaked about with other people also is that the meat will be produced even if i don't buy it
It's all about profits and invisible hand of market works well. If enough people stop buying meat, then it won't be as profitable. Also there is another (ethic) point of view on stop eating meat. One person on a vegan diet can save approximately 100 animals per year. Maybe it is a drop in a sea considering quantities of meat produced, but it can be a big difference for those animals. Also positive environmental impact of this (water consumption, crop consumption, methane production, pollution) is huge.
Cyclone wrote:I am open to any new information about vegan and other diets
brimstoneSalad covered ethic side of being vegan so I won't do the same (as he is way more erudite than me). There are also vast health benefits of vegan diet if it's well planned. Considering your discussion in this topic, I'd suggest doing some research how animal products affects body compared with effects of plant based diet. I myself started on plant-based diet (just to try it, and see it's health benefits) and shortly after that i became vegan (same diet + ethics).
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Lightningman_42
Master in Training
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:19 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: California

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Lightningman_42 »

Hello Cyclone, welcome to the forum. I hope you feel welcome here and will continue to participate in discussion with us.

I agree with you that it seems odd, that the majority of people within a society can ignore serious problems by telling themselves "this is natural/normal/necessary", "this is just the way things are", and "it's always been like this; always will be." I have not been put through such an experience with religious dogma, thankfully (my parents are atheists, and the Bay Area of California is quite secular, so I was not indoctrinated into religion). I have, however, experienced it with the attitude that most people around me have towards animal-consumption: assuming that it's justified, using the mindset you've described. Assuming it's fine to do, but not thinking carefully about why.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
Minos
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Location: Czech republic

Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Minos »

Cyclone wrote:Yes, my parents do know that I'm an atheist as it is in finnish law to get your parents permission if you want to leave church before you're 18.
I'm surprised that such law exists nowadays. Is it enforced?
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Cyclone
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

To Minos: Yes, I'm pretty sure that it's mandatory in Finland
To everyone that mentioned markets of meat: That is something I had not realized...
To Minos mentioning health benefits: That is some thing that I have been aware of since I met my vegan friends.
To brimstoneSalad: Well that's... an interesting approach which I do get... but damn.
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Cyclone
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Cyclone »

I just want to ask: Do you guys think I'm a lesser human being for my choices?
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Jaywalker
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Re: Introducing myself to the forums

Post by Jaywalker »

Cyclone wrote:I just want to ask: Do you guys think I'm a lesser human being for my choices?
What does lesser mean?

If you knowingly do bad things, that of course makes you a worse person in a moral sense. Whether that makes you "lesser" or not is dependent on the judgement criteria of whoever is making such an evaluation. What if someone considers the ability to take whatever you want with no consideration for others ("might makes right") a valid criteria for judging someone's ultimate worth?

Assigning some sort of universal value to people this way would be arbitrary though. We can only make a meaningful statement about whether you're moral or not.
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