Who's Sam Arcot?

[Sam Arcot]

Thanks brimstonesalad. I agree that vegetarianism is the solution to animal cruelty and butchery. But the veganism goes a little too far by abolishing diary. Milking the cows has almost no harm on them given the food and shelter that is provided to them in return. As in any symbiotic relationship, I think it is fine to milk them in return for the favors.

My primary concern today is to find a social circle that would accept me. I am pretty bad at making friends out of strangers. I am not very sure about me getting accepted in America. Though I am well aware of their culture and lifestyle which I also so profoundly admire, I am mature enough to know that I will find myself nothing more than a foreigner, which I will be to the people there. I am not very talented at getting into a random people. I am a bit reserved and scared of rejections. I had a few interactions with the Americans in my city and they were not very smooth ones. I met two american girls in my city and we decided to have a coffee together. They were of my age and I told them how I was undergoing the stage of transformation (I was an agnostic back then). We had a chat for about hours and they seemed smiling and friendly. But after they left they never contacted me again. In the last message one of them told me that she had a boyfriend. Though I never asked her about it nor mentioned anything romantic. They thought I was some kind of despo making his way into them. And may be I would have thought the same way if I was approached by a foreigner. Things would have been easier if I were a white maybe. But as an Indian they see me as a complete alien. I am utterly confused. But I know the Muslim community and the Indian community is the worst place on earth for me. I wish we had community centers for the atheists as well.

[brimstoneSalad]

Thanks brimstonesalad. I agree that vegetarianism is the solution to animal cruelty and butchery. But the veganism goes a little too far by abolishing diary. Milking the cows has almost no harm on them given the food and shelter that is provided to them in return. As in any symbiotic relationship, I think it is fine to milk them in return for the favors.

It depends a lot on the situation. In India, some cows are treated well and not killed or abused; in the U.S.A., though, and most of the rest of the world, they are treated as milk machines, to be hooked up to a pump, and as soon as the production drops, they are shipped off to be killed.

It's unfortunate that people would treat this animal so badly.

I wonder if it's possible for cows to be treated better all over the world - maybe if we had better animal protection laws for them. But still, it's not so clear. As soon as an animal produces something, people who are greedy for profit will take advantage of that, and the result can be bad (because they try to keep the cow as cheap as possible- living conditions, medical care, food, in order to maximize profit).
I made a post about hypothetical animal agriculture as a non-profit system elsewhere on the forum.

Here you go:

http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=22&t=115


It's not always bad (like a beloved family cow, owned by reasonably wealthy Hindus might have a good life and not be killed), but a cow owned by a company (with no love involved to motivate good treatment) to produce milk will be treated as a machine due to the nature of the relationship.

Anyway, there's no reason to drink milk, since it's not very good for you anyway (we used to think it was healthy, but it turns out it's not good for adults to drink). So, I think it's easier to just avoid it, and drink soy milk (which is cheaper, healthier, and poses less risk for animal abuse).

That's consequential veganism: vegan not because of some dogma against animal products, but just because it's easier and more practical as a moral practice.

My primary concern today is to find a social circle that would accept me.

Oh, that's not too hard. What city are you going to?

There are atheist social circles in most cities, but they are small.
There are also vegetarian social circles, if you decide to try that, and they're about the same size as the atheist circles.

But if you join both circles, then you can usually have one or two social events each week.

Add to that, you can go to a Unitarian church on Sundays, which are basically Christian flavored deists and humanists, and a few liberal Biblical Christians and others mixed in. They accept everybody. Although the services can have a lot of Christian themes, there are all kinds of people there (and some even host atheist and humanist group meetings). It's a good option to meet more secular minded people (compared to other churches).

I had a few interactions with the Americans in my city and they were not very smooth ones. I met two american girls in my city and we decided to have a coffee together.

That in itself is very impressive, that you could get their attention long enough to have coffee.

Don't expect anything from American expats, they're not interested in making friends at all; they're interested in having experiences. After they had a conversation with you, they were done and they were onto the next interesting cultural experience, or country, or whatever.

You could say they're hedonistic flakes, chasing thrills and interests, and not forming any real or lasting relationships.

They were of my age and I told them how I was undergoing the stage of transformation (I was an agnostic back then). We had a chat for about hours and they seemed smiling and friendly.

Yes, they had an interesting conversation. They met a Muslim in India who was questioning his faith. They'll tell all of their friends about it, and post in on Facebook.

But you were a one trick pony, after they got the interesting experience, they weren't interested in anything else- to them, being friends with a local is boring unless you had something to offer them. They went on to talk to a Hindu, or a Sikh, or a Jain after you, and they did the same thing to them (ignoring their messages after).

One of them might have even had sex with you and then never called you again if they were sexplorers (checking off each "kind" of person on the list: "Had sex with a Muslim in India- check!"). Talk about confusing- what must people think when Americans do that?

But after they left they never contacted me again. In the last message one of them told me that she had a boyfriend.

She felt awkward for not replying, and she thought that would make you stop messaging her. She probably does not have a boyfriend.

Things would have been easier if I were a white maybe.

Nope. They never would have talked to you if you were white, because you wouldn't have been interesting enough to have coffee with.

If you were a white Muslim snake charmer who was abandoned in India as a baby by your Scottish parents when your mother had a psychotic break and your father took her home thinking she had drowned you but you were rescued from the river by a child who became your adopted older brother -- then you would have been interesting enough to talk to for... two coffees.

If you want to keep expats' attention, all you have to do is make up a bunch of crazy stuff. Keep feeding them interesting stories, and they'll keep coming back and talking to you. Unless they figure out you're bullshitting.

That's all they want- interesting experiences/stories/etc. to tell their friends or post on Facebook.

But as an Indian they see me as a complete alien.

That's why they had coffee with you.

I am utterly confused.

I hope that explanation of expats helps. I'm sorry to burst your bubble and say they basically used you for entertainment... but that's how it is. It's nothing to do with anything you did wrong. They just weren't interested in making friends.

If you had fun talking to them too, then it's win-win. But where they were mean is in not telling you that clearly by e-mail when you messaged them.

Expats are unusual.

Most Americans are not like that, and will not talk to you for an hour out of the blue and then not contact you again.
Most Americans will only talk to you if you have some common interest/hobby first and you're going to be in the same social circle.

[Sam Arcot]

Wow! Thanks brimestonesalad! Now that I think of it, it explains a lot. I always blamed myself for it. Though I knew I was the politest I could be with them and also made sure that I was formal enough to draw the line of friendship. Phewww. That's like a burden of failure lifted off from my head. That was so fruitful.

[brimstoneSalad]

No problem Sam,

I'm sure a lot of people feel that way when that happens, the "what did I do wrong?" feeling.
It's important to know, it's often not about you, it's about them.

They're not necessarily bad people, just different. But they should have been honest with you when you messaged instead of ignoring you. Sorry they didn't tell you that themselves.

I always try to do that when I meet people and they want my e-mail address, etc.
Explaining that I just like to talk to many different people when I go out because it's interesting, but that I don't have time to reply to email often or meet with people except at work or volunteering.
So if they're not in the same field (to collaborate on business), or they aren't interested in vegan and secular outreach, it's probably a non-starter. If they're interested in both of those things, and in the same field, then we have lots to talk about and do.
That's why joining interest based social circles is so crucial.

Like many adults, I have a pretty narrow range of social hobbies that I make time for, and I economize my social life.
If I'm going to spend 2-3 hours socializing, I don't usually want to meet one person, I want to meet with a group to get the most social value per hour to do activities together. There are exceptions, but those are rare.

Although if somebody proposes something very interesting (and offers to pay for it), my interest can be piqued even if we don't share any other interests. This is the case for almost anybody- not just me. As soon as they stop finding new interesting things to do and paying for them, though, that's it. You can always bribe people to hang out with you, but don't do that- it's much better just to find a social circle with strong common interests and save your money.

[Sam Arcot]

Back when I was a Fascist

Did I tell you? That immediately after turning away from religion, I became a fascist for a period of time? Because being in religious is kind of a fascism too. Atleast it was for me. So my conversion from Islamist to atheist was stepping from one kind of fascism to another. When I was an Islamist, I was involved in discussions about the future of the faith and its goals. Its goals were of course the world domination under one totalitarian regime. I remember how easy it felt as the members of my community explained how it could be achieved. And it could be through population growth and its spread across the world. But in the days of my agnosticism, my opinion on the Muslims changed greatly. I no more agreed that Muslims should dominate the world. In fact, I felt it as a threat to the world peace. Hence, I thought the one solution to stop the advance was to sterilize the masses of the Muslim community who breed unchecked. For example, there are regions in my city were the masses of the muslim community reside. And at these places, the rate of child birth is >8 per couple. You can observe that we have the same picture globally, in the countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. I totally believed in this theory that the solution was sterilize them. I thought this was the only way to save my country from falling into Islamic regime in the future. I wanted to organize a group on my own and have them work on it. Or affiliate myself to a hindu right wing. But what stopped me? What brought me back to the senses? It was no book, no person or movie. It were but my many failures. I failed at almost everything I tried. And with these failures I learnt great lessons. Life thought me how I was nothing. How my presence was of least significance as was the presence of others (except a few). It thought me how I should be concerned about myself and not the politics. It thought me that happiness is in moving away and tolerating people. Now I see just too things in the universe- the living and the dead. I admire life in any form and in any place. Though I still feel threatened by the growing population of my ex-community, I don't feel like doing anything about it. After knowing that I have hardly done anything for myself.

[CryoVirus]

Just gunna pop in a quick welcome!!! I'm a bit late. Love the discussion that has started by the way, seems you've had some expiriences huh Sam?

[Sam Arcot]

Hi CryoVirus. I guess I can say that I have been through things which any westerner may not. But I don't consider myself anything special, though I do appreciate myself for making my way out of a vicious circle in which I was born.

[CryoVirus]

Well it's nice to meet you, I hope to debate with you in the future. See you around the forums

[brimstoneSalad]

Though I still feel threatened by the growing population of my ex-community, I don't feel like doing anything about it. After knowing that I have hardly done anything for myself.

Great story.

Yes, It's important to realize our limits. It's when people try to act beyond them that they resort to things like violence, etc.

Ultimately, you're only responsible for your own actions on this Earth, which is all you can really control.

A lot of new vegans have that feeling- to make the world go vegan - particularly young ones. Then, at a certain point, you realize it's beyond your power, and that really your only responsibility is to your own actions, and to make the small (but meaningful) difference that you can by doing your best to inspire others.