Hello!

[PsYcHo]

Hello all,

Despite my username, I'm usually quite rational. My religion is listed as other because I consider myself Agnostic. I was raised Christian, turned Atheist in my youth, then turned Agnostic as I learned more.

I am a meat-eater who held a negative opinion of Vegans mainly due to their popular portrayal by non- Vegans. But I believe if you disagree with something, you should learn as much as you can about it, otherwise you have no intelligent arguments. I stumbled upon the VeganAtheist channel while researching religions, and decided to learn more about Veganism. I was pleasantly surprised at the intelligent, non-attacking way every video I saw was portrayed.

I enjoy debating people of different beliefs who use facts and intelligence to make an argument. A true debate should either end with one side changing sides, or a handshake and a promise to think about it. If you cannot take criticism of your position, you don't have a very strong position.

I travel a lot, but I will actively try to answer any questions honestly, and when possible timely.

[Cirion Spellbinder]

Greetings PsYcHo!
Why do you identify as agnostic? Are you sure you aren't an agnostic atheist or do you have no idea wether or not a God exists?
What issues do you have with veganism / vegan arguments?

[PsYcHo]

Hello Cirion,

I consider myself agnostic because while I believe all religions to be man-made, science also has a few gaps that confuse me. Mainly, no one can scientifically explain how to create matter out of nothing. I believe the Big-bang theory, but saying all matter was super-compressed then exploded does not answer how the matter got there in the first place. (Just another "in the beginning, God said/ in the beginning, Science said) I am curious as to what an agnostic atheist is.

As far as issues with vegans, upon researching the subject, I've learned the vegan community is as varied as the religious community. Mainly I only saw vegans portrayed as angry, holier-than-thou types. I joined this forum because the videos were so different from my expectations, I had to learn more. There are subjects I would like to debate, but they are varied. I look forward to it.

[garrethdsouza]

Hi, what does your username refer to?

If you're open to understanding veganism, you could check out some of this

A useful article on this subject
On meat eating and rationality: Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris
http://veganstrategist.org/2014/02/09/o ... am-harris/

- Earthlings. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PB_ZMiYy_OQ (deals with the ethics angle; I disagree in part on their research bit but otherwise it is a must watch)

- Cowspiracy. http://www.cowspiracy.com (it's not free though, I've heard it is also on Netflix, it deals with the environmental side quite well)

- Ethics of what we eat by Prof Peter Singer https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA
OR animal liberation by Prof Peter Singer https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=syop78Em5dE

If you want to start off or open to just one bit from this though, I'd suggest priority would be watching earthlings as it is pretty much a prerequisite on this topic.

[garrethdsouza]

Regarding agnostic atheist, this describes it rather well
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Jl88TdKIMA

Technically you can't prove a negative so we are all agnostic atheist just as we are agnostic aunicornists. No one actually thinks unicorns exist either and you can't prove that they don't but that doesn't mean that they exist.

[PsYcHo]

Thanks for the links! I'll check them out. I love the term aunicornist. (just a tiny bit of a brony. Sonic vs. Rainbow dash is my favorite if you're interested, but beware. It will take you to a weird side of you-tube)

As far as my username, I started using it many years ago while playing FF, and as a teenager/20 something I was a bit wild. (If there was a drug that isn't newer than 2005 or so, I've probably tried it)

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

Hello all,

Despite my username, I'm usually quite rational. My religion is listed as other because I consider myself Agnostic. I was raised Christian, turned Atheist in my youth, then turned Agnostic as I learned more.

I am a meat-eater who held a negative opinion of Vegans mainly due to their popular portrayal by non- Vegans. But I believe if you disagree with something, you should learn as much as you can about it, otherwise you have no intelligent arguments. I stumbled upon the VeganAtheist channel while researching religions, and decided to learn more about Veganism. I was pleasantly surprised at the intelligent, non-attacking way every video I saw was portrayed.

I enjoy debating people of different beliefs who use facts and intelligence to make an argument. A true debate should either end with one side changing sides, or a handshake and a promise to think about it. If you cannot take criticism of your position, you don't have a very strong position.

I travel a lot, but I will actively try to answer any questions honestly, and when possible timely.

Hey ^_^

I would consider myself more an Agnostic Atheist myself, I don't personally think there is, but I am not certain. I tend to try to keep my opinion of that to myself (now, as I did have a blog dedicated to it at one point in time) because it's just nicer that way IMO. Less debates with people.

You've seen my website, so you know a lot about my views and opinions on a lot of things vegan. I don't agree with the whole "meat eaters are murderers" portrayal that many vegans like to show carnists as, because in reality most people who eat meat are just going to the grocery store to pick up dinner for the day or week, they are not even thinking about what is in their food most of the time, and most certainly are not ripping the flesh off an alive animal (which is something I WOULD have an issue with).

So many vegans here are against the typical Freelee/DurianRider/Vegan-Gains/Gary-Yourofsky/Etc version of veganism that attacks everyone who isn't a vegan because they are not vegan. We tend to be much more level-headed here ^_^ I hope you enjoy it here!

[PsYcHo]

You've seen my website, so you know a lot about my views and opinions on a lot of things vegan.

The cartoon with Chester Cheetah doing lines of cheddar made me laugh my ass off, so I had to check out your site. I've learned a lot so far, but I'm always trying to learn something. (mostly useless knowledge, but sometimes I get serious.) Definitely some interesting topics here!

[PsYcHo]

If you want to start off or open to just one bit from this though, I'd suggest priority would be watching earthlings as it is pretty much a prerequisite on this topic.

Thank you for the suggestion. I did watch it in its entirety, and it was very informative. And sad. Very, very sad.

Despite being a carnist, I do care about animal welfare strongly. Before someone launches into "WHY do you eat them??!!" mode, hear me out. Unlike most of my kind, I have raised and killed my own food. Why? A creature is giving up its life for me to eat. Even in my youth I did not take that for granted. I was raised in a family that often had to hunt to eat. Sport hunting in my family is seen as wasteful and cruel, a hobby of psychopaths. I am financially secure now, but I still refuse to buy new clothes at a store. I grew up on Goodwill and yard-sale clothes, why pay $50 for a pair of jeans that I can get for $3 at the flea-market? My fiance thinks its funny that I might have $500 cash in my pocket, but will not buy a new belt until the old one is broken beyond repair. Growing up poor you waste nothing.

Now to answer the "WHY do you eat meat??!!" Growing up, we raised rabbits. I was a child, and I loved those bunnies. They pooped a lot, and I cleaned out the pens and put fresh hay down. I fed them. I petted them. I named them. But when the food-stamps didn't last the whole month, sometimes "Spotty" or "Springy" would disappear. I thought deer meat was something everybody ate. Squirrel was just the meat in "rats and rice". (Is he getting to WHY he still eats meat??!!)

Before I stumbled on the VeganAtheist, channel, I was driving thru Texas. I passed what I am assuming was a "processing" plant, because there was thousands of cows crammed into outdoor cages. Neck to neck. The smell was appalling. When I stopped for food, I ordered fish, even thought I never liked it. How could I eat a cow when I just saw 1. that was disgusting, and 2. I felt bad for those cows. I didn't stop eating beef, but I cut waaaayyy down.

So (FINALLY!) why do I still eat meat? Besides the normal "I always have", I really don't know. If all I had to go on was angry people yelling at how I was a murderer, I would likely do it out of spite. But I have talked to a lot of really interesting, accepting Vegans as of late, and I am really questioning why I eat meat at all. I like the taste, but I also like the taste of vegetables and grains, especially with spices. (Indian food is ammazzzzing!!) I also hate to inflict suffering on another being. (I've had many pets in my life, and even fish or scorpions have intelligence. )

To all the tolerant Vegans who made me question myself, thank you, and I will make a serious effort to stop contributing to the pain of other creatures. To the angry Vegans, how likely are you to change your views because someone yells at you and says your beliefs are wrong......

[brimstoneSalad]

Thanks for the story PsYcHo,

I can definitely understanding the hunting thing for low income families; it's impossible to fault people who can't afford to eat when they kill animals to avoid starving. World governments really need to help people in these situations more.

I think the definition of "vegan" even takes that into account, where it says "possible and practicable". Kind of like your soup kitchen example in another thread, if you're starving, you have to do what you have to do -- in those cases it's no longer possible or practicable for you to avoid animal products. It's just when we have other things to eat (and even more healthy things too) that we feel morally compelled to choose those instead.