Hey there :)

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Volenta
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by Volenta »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Yeah, as TheVeganAtheist said in his recent video criticizing TJ, it is disappointing.
There is the argument that TJ makes atheists look kind of bad, because his arguments are usually more provocation than anything else, and he's very visible.

Unfortunately, atheists aren't more rational in general, they just happen to be right about that one thing. Plenty of other dogmas out there beyond god (political, and otherwise).
Ah, didn't notice the recent video. Great to have TheVeganAtheist on it. :)

The rational thinking got me into being an atheist, but it seems that's certainly not the case with everyone. ;)
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Volenta wrote: The rational thinking got me into being an atheist, but it seems that's certainly not the case with everyone. ;)
Yeah. People reach the same place from many different routes. Just wish more of those could lead people to veganism :)


When Christians say to atheists, "You just hate god because you want to live in sin", they're usually wrong... but there are some people (like TJ) where that may get at the heart of it.

Some people just want to do whatever terrible things they feel like, and when others tell them they shouldn't for whatever reason, they become hostile and react against it not out of reason, but out of something irrational and primitive from the Id, as Freud might say, and the Ego just steps in to rationalize whatever the Id has already demanded after the fact- it is in this way that people like TJ maintain the personal illusion of consistency.

Whenever a Christian says to me, "You just hate god because you want to live in sin", I tell them I'm vegan. Then they get confused and shut up.
How could somebody maintain moral standards without the threat of hellfire?
You could say people can ONLY maintain moral standards without the threat of hellfire- otherwise there's no moral choice about it at all.

That's a concept TJ may never understand; choosing to do the right thing only because it is the right thing.
Although I hope he does some day, I think he has probably succeeded in isolating himself with unquestioning fans by now; it would take another major personal experience to shake him out of it- it's at least very unlikely by now.
Viktorius_the_Third
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by Viktorius_the_Third »

To be honest, I really like theamazing atheist and i can tell you why:
he is maybe wrong and irrational to vegetarians/vegans. but he once explained his views in a serious interview! he had pretty much the same reasons as we all... non awareness taste et cetera...
i think his videos in general are very rational! I am too a feminist hater (for obvious reasons i hope if not i would love to chat about that!) and his way is of cause overhyping to some extend! but that is just what people want to see! hes more a comedian than a debate person. i think you you TheVeganAtheist would ask him to debate with you (not for a video) you would see his rational side! i really think he is, but for the sake of his videos he makes fun of them!
He has often stated, that most of his rants aren't against christians or against vegetarians or whatever in general but more to a few specific people who are stupid and arrogant and think they know it all! (creationism... >_<) one of his close friends (MrRepzion) was a long Christian but on a sane basis! he also once mentioned he got why TJ rants this often about creationists...
&@brimstonesalad:
yea i feel like that as well! always once small book of what i eat would probably help ^^
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Volenta
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by Volenta »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Note how he used to be a libertarian: he was probably influenced by the likes of Ayn Rand, which may explain a lot of his very twisted and irrational views on morality. He has evolved into a liberal, though, so he may not be hopeless if somebody can get through to him.
The problem with a lot of liberals today is that even though they accept John Stuart Mill's harm principle, their moral circle doesn't go beyond humans. They accept it for pretty much every minority or suppressed group—gays, (mentally) handicapped people, black people, women—except for animals. Expanding their circle is the next step every liberal and humanist should take, worthy of that name.
Viktorius_the_Third wrote:I am too a feminist hater (for obvious reasons i hope if not i would love to chat about that!)
I'm actually interested what your reasons are. I haven't read much about it, so I'm pretty ignorant. You can start a separate topic about it if you like.
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by Viktorius_the_Third »

Volenta wrote:
brimstoneSalad wrote:Note how he used to be a libertarian: he was probably influenced by the likes of Ayn Rand, which may explain a lot of his very twisted and irrational views on morality. He has evolved into a liberal, though, so he may not be hopeless if somebody can get through to him.
The problem with a lot of liberals today is that even though they accept John Stuart Mill's harm principle, their moral circle doesn't go beyond humans. They accept it for pretty much every minority or suppressed group—gays, (mentally) handicapped people, black people, women—except for animals. Expanding their circle is the next step every liberal and humanist should take, worthy of that name.
Viktorius_the_Third wrote:I am too a feminist hater (for obvious reasons i hope if not i would love to chat about that!)
I'm actually interested what your reasons are. I haven't read much about it, so I'm pretty ignorant. You can start a separate topic about it if you like.
duid :)
look here:
http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=15&t=151
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Viktorius_the_Third wrote:To be honest, I really like theamazing atheist and i can tell you why:
he is maybe wrong and irrational to vegetarians/vegans. but he once explained his views in a serious interview! he had pretty much the same reasons as we all... non awareness taste et cetera...
Outside the context of his rants, he has a more reasonable demeanor. But aside from low hanging fruit (like creationists, and as you mentioned, maybe some feminists who have made bad arguments on youtube- I'm not that familiar with the issue), his arguments have little basis in reason, and he's not an intellectual heavyweight.

In advocating atheism, he's more of a character/clown. And there may be a need for that. I think each approach has its own audience, and may contribute in its own way (although it may irk us that we have to distance ourselves from him).

With regards to his own sacred cows, though, he's been consistently irrational.

He used to be a libertarian, and he didn't succumb to any rational argument- instead, he had to have a personal experience (and emotional one) in the E.R. when his father died.

When it takes an emotional personal experience to change somebody's mind about something, despite all of the reasoned arguments, that is not a very rational person at heart.
A rational person can change his or her mind for reasoned argument alone, without the need for personal emotional revelation.

This is indicative of his general mindset- more emotional than rational- and it's the problem with his views on vegetarianism too.

Every one of his reasons is irrational (non awareness- false, animals are aware- taste - false, human taste perception adjusts to the new status quo).

TJ just happens to be an atheist instead of a creationist, and on that front he's just lucky (it has nothing to do with reason). He accidentally has the right position, so he is accidentally correct when he challenges creationists. He could have just as easily been a creationist himself, and if he were he would ignore reality in the same way he does in his attacks on vegetarianism.

There are intelligent and rational people who are not vegetarian (like Dawkins)- but there aren't any who won't admit that vegetarianism technically has the moral high ground, even if they don't practice it themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xxdMUuZXUY

Here's a great interview between Peter Singer and Richard Dawkins. Definitely worth a watch :)

That's how somebody who isn't vegetarian behaves rationally in a conversation. TJ would never do that.

i think you you TheVeganAtheist would ask him to debate with you (not for a video) you would see his rational side!


I agree that if TheVeganAtheist debated him, he would probably see a more reasonable demeanor. The arguments would still be equally irrational, though (just without as much provocation).
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by Viktorius_the_Third »

brimstoneSalad wrote: In advocating atheism, he's more of a character/clown. And there may be a need for that. I think each approach has its own audience, and may contribute in its own way (although it may irk us that we have to distance ourselves from him).

With regards to his own sacred cows, though, he's been consistently irrational.

He used to be a libertarian, and he didn't succumb to any rational argument- instead, he had to have a personal experience (and emotional one) in the E.R. when his father died.

When it takes an emotional personal experience to change somebody's mind about something, despite all of the reasoned arguments, that is not a very rational person at heart.
A rational person can change his or her mind for reasoned argument alone, without the need for personal emotional revelation.

This is indicative of his general mindset- more emotional than rational- and it's the problem with his views on vegetarianism too.

Every one of his reasons is irrational (non awareness- false, animals are aware- taste - false, human taste perception adjusts to the new status quo).

TJ just happens to be an atheist instead of a creationist, and on that front he's just lucky (it has nothing to do with reason). He accidentally has the right position, so he is accidentally correct when he challenges creationists. He could have just as easily been a creationist himself, and if he were he would ignore reality in the same way he does in his attacks on vegetarianism.

There are intelligent and rational people who are not vegetarian (like Dawkins)- but there aren't any who won't admit that vegetarianism technically has the moral high ground, even if they don't practice it themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xxdMUuZXUY

Here's a great interview between Peter Singer and Richard Dawkins. Definitely worth a watch :)

That's how somebody who isn't vegetarian behaves rationally in a conversation. TJ would never do that.

i think you you TheVeganAtheist would ask him to debate with you (not for a video) you would see his rational side!


I agree that if TheVeganAtheist debated him, he would probably see a more reasonable demeanor. The arguments would still be equally irrational, though (just without as much provocation).
well for starters... if we start with "he could have been creationist if he was born somewhere else... we are moving toward an endless debate. because i think that every person shapes through his surrounding. if you are into programming i kinda think every person is a different language (c,c++,c#,java,phython whatsoever) and they process imput very differently. but generally a "print "Hello World"" always writes a text that says hello world!
I know its hard to follow my weird thoughts but im just saying im VERY happy that i was born in my surroundings, because even imagining me as a creationist... uhg >_<
and i think tj has the right thoughts... he is just not into animals and the related topics!

by the way: by "awareness" i didnt mean the awareness of the animals! i meant his awareness! if you are told since your birth that blue is called red, you will ALWAYS! call it red. until one guy tells you... then you say hes stupid. then the next guy comes around. then you start thinking about it. and after times you try to defend your point of view. everyone else thinks that you are crazy for calling blue red. but you KNOW its red youve seen it with your own eyes... ^_^
on and on... its normal to struggle... and i think if he had a vegan friend like me where he could see me living vegan without missing anything... and answering questions if needed... i think he would change!
BUT there is one human trait that may interrupt:
the fear of beeing wrong! most people cant stand beeing wrong... and to acknowledge that you are wrong for a lifetime... is often to much for many people.-..
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Viktorius_the_Third wrote: and i think tj has the right thoughts... he is just not into animals and the related topics!
It's one thing if somebody just avoids a topic and doesn't know anything about it, doesn't discuss it, etc. - it's quite another thing to do what he does, spouting provocative ignorance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIacX8rPoKw

Did you see this video response?

What TJ did in that video was not just "not into animals"; he's venomously antagonistic to those who are, and he's going through a lot of trouble to provoke and produce irrational arguments against it.

I know people who don't care about animals; they don't have to make up stuff, or rationalize it, because they're unapologetic hedonists. They also don't care about slavery, people dying of AIDS in other countries, people with cancer, etc. They're just self involved, and they admit that the only thing they care about is themselves, and their immediate friends and family.
I don't like it, but it is honest- and while as counterproductive to happiness as drug abuse, it's not inherently irrational in the way that TJ's arguments have been as long as they see it for what it is.

TJ wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to be both vocal and ignorant- it's a combination that makes him subject to criticism, and rightly so.
Viktorius_the_Third wrote:by the way: by "awareness" i didnt mean the awareness of the animals! i meant his awareness! if you are told since your birth that blue is called red, you will ALWAYS! call it red. until one guy tells you... then you say hes stupid. then the next guy comes around. then you start thinking about it. and after times you try to defend your point of view. everyone else thinks that you are crazy for calling blue red. but you KNOW its red youve seen it with your own eyes... ^_^
on and on... its normal to struggle...
Do you mean he has said this himself?

That's the same reason people believe in god, or any other irrational thing.
TJ can't hide behind ignorance when he criticizes other people for doing the same.

Viktorius_the_Third wrote: and i think if he had a vegan friend like me where he could see me living vegan without missing anything... and answering questions if needed... i think he would change!
He and Jaclyn Glenn are friends.
She used to be vegan, although I'm not sure if she still is. She doesn't seem to care much about veganism anymore.
Viktorius_the_Third wrote: BUT there is one human trait that may interrupt:
the fear of beeing wrong! most people cant stand beeing wrong... and to acknowledge that you are wrong for a lifetime... is often to much for many people.-..
I understand that, but that doesn't make him any better than the creationists who are also afraid of having been wrong about evolution and god this whole time. They've all put their feet in it, and now they can't take them back out again.

It's the mark of an irrational, closed mind.

It's human nature to be wrong now and then; I'm wrong every now and then. Less now than I used to be, because I changed my mind when I was corrected- which is the only way to stop being wrong. I like being the least wrong I can possibly be.

TJ is averse to changing his mind- which is what makes him irrational.
He had to have an emotional experience at the death of his father just to switch political views. That's not a rational person. A rational person changes his or her views because of a good argument, and doesn't need somebody close to them to die to give them permission to change them for emotional reasons.

Can TJ become rational? I'm not sure.

It's not just software, but a firmware update at the very least. He needs to radically change the way he thinks and addresses controversial problems, rather than grappling onto whatever position is closest to supporting his current behavior and trying to rationalize it, he needs to start challenging himself more and using his brain to understand objective reality outside of his bubble of personal rhetoric.

I hope he does.
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Re: Hey there :)

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About the video response, I think VA now has enough material for his 'stupid meat eater comments' serie to last a year or so. Some people are even saying that plants are sentient beings or that animals are not. Sometimes I feel hopeless.
For evil to prevail, good people must stand aside and do nothing.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Hey there :)

Post by brimstoneSalad »

thebestofenergy wrote:About the video response, I think VA now has enough material for his 'stupid meat eater comments' serie to last a year or so. Some people are even saying that plants are sentient beings or that animals are not. Sometimes I feel hopeless.
Ooh, are you reading youtube comments?

I try not to do that. It's very demoralizing, how ignorant people are- it makes the task seem almost insurmountable.

Bu hey, all of us used to be ignorant putzes right?
There is hope, it's just very, very difficult. Rarely is anything worth doing easy, right?
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