Stupid Feminist Comments

User avatar
Kyron
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:27 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Re: Stupid Feminist Comments

Post by Kyron » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:59 pm

eqALLity wrote:I was saying that, in general, society considers women who have a lot of casual sex sluts, and that men don't have to deal with that stigma. In fact, like you go on to say, they are praised for it.
I agree that nobody should be branded a "slut" when it has become clear that they have had sex with many people. However, on the other hand, men are effected with the reverse-issue. If a man does NOT have sex, or has too little, he is belittled, called a "virgin" in a negative manner. etc. While the specifics of those issues are usually gendered, the general issue is not. And it can be quantified under "bullying", which we all agree, is a horrible thing.

User avatar
EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 2997
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Post by EquALLity » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:08 pm

Kyron wrote:
eqALLity wrote:I was saying that, in general, society considers women who have a lot of casual sex sluts, and that men don't have to deal with that stigma. In fact, like you go on to say, they are praised for it.
I agree that nobody should be branded a "slut" when it has become clear that they have had sex with many people. However, on the other hand, men are effected with the reverse-issue. If a man does NOT have sex, or has too little, he is belittled, called a "virgin" in a negative manner. etc. While the specifics of those issues are usually gendered, the general issue is not. And it can be quantified under "bullying", which we all agree, is a horrible thing.
Yeah, I totally agree. I think both of those things are issues.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

User avatar
EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 2997
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Post by EquALLity » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:28 pm

knot wrote:
EquALLity wrote: But it's a harmful double standard.

If a man talks it about it, society doesn't judge him for his actions. It praises him.
If a woman does, society condemns her as a 'slut'.

As a consequence, men are actually encouraged to do it and talk about it, while women are discouraged in a harmful way.
It's a double standard created by biology, I dont think there is an easy way to really fix it. Men are hardwired to have as much sex as possible with any number of women, whereas women are designed to be much more picky. Historically it has been "dangerous" for men to enter relationships with women who sleep around a lot, because that would mean you risked wasting your time accidentally raising another man's child. At least that's the evo-psych reason I have heard for slut shaming.
I think that it will get better as society gets more liberal. Anyway, it doesn't matter; I'm just saying that it's wrong and sexist towards women.
knot wrote:In an age of contraception devices, slut shaming doesn't make much sense, but on the other hand, I dont understand why women would want to brag about having tons of random sex in the first place, since its so incredibly easy to pick up men. Just watch any street experiment where men/women ask total strangers if they want to have sex
I'm not sure what your point is. Women bragging about their sex lives isn't hurting anyone. And it's not necessarily bragging to talk about your sex life.

It doesn't just not make sense; it's wrong and sexist. And it's not just justified just because to be slut shamed for sex women typically have to talk about their sex lives.

Also note that women don't just deal with slut shaming because of sex; that's just what we're talking about.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

User avatar
Kyron
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:27 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Post by Kyron » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:32 pm

I think that it will get better as society gets more liberal

Speaking of which!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH0mPfR-K2U

Note: The YouTuber himself, I don't really like, or support a lot of his views. But this video in particular I find is spot-on.

User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 9148
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Post by brimstoneSalad » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:31 am

EquALLity wrote: I was saying that, in general, society considers women who have a lot of casual sex sluts, and that men don't have to deal with that stigma. In fact, like you go on to say, they are praised for it.
Women don't have to deal with it either, if they don't talk about it.

Regardless of how society views the bragging about sexual exploits by men and women, that changes nothing about the fact that women have the privilege of being able to have sex pretty much any time, anywhere, with very nearly whoever they want, if they want to.

Men are much more limited in this capacity -- unless they're rapists.

KIP suggested that women can not do this because of stigma, which just isn't true. You don't dismiss one claim of privilege by demonstrating another completely different claim of privilege on the other side.

Stigma is both optional (for sharing the fact), and a matter of personal psychology. It doesn't make it impossible for women to go around picking up men wherever they want IF they want to have lots of sex.
EquALLity wrote: But why should people have to hide stuff about themselves if they do not want to?
Should I have to hide information about the color and texture of my bowel movements? Why can't I go around talking about my poops all day?

Well, I can, but people will think I'm a freak.

We abstain from talking about many things every day, because it's just not normal social behavior.
EquALLity wrote: And why is it ok that there stigma specifically for women when they don't keep it private, but not men, even though they are doing the exact same thing?
Women can gossip about people, talk about shoes, hair, makeup, and nobody thinks anything of it. If a man wants to have these kinds of conversations, he'll be stigmatized for it.

Gender roles have defined certain things that are acceptable practice to discuss for men and women, and they vary in different contexts.

I explicitly noted that it is a matter of male privilege that they can brag about their sexual exploits and be congratulated for them.

This does not in any way nullify the female privilege of easier access to sex. It relates only to women's inability to talk about it openly after without stigma.
This is not something I have denied, I am only denying that it nullified the former fact of female privilege.

Like I've said many times, both sides have different privileges. It basically sucks for everybody, in different ways.
EquALLity wrote: "Society says I'm a slut if I have casual sex, and I do. So I'm a slut, and bad?"
That's up to her, if she believes what society says.
Society says atheists are bad, do you feel like a bad person? Or do you roll your eyes, and consider people who say that to be idiots?

And what exactly do you propose be done about it? Should we do away with freedom of speech, and not allow people to share ill informed beliefs?
EquALLity wrote:"Society says it's bad for me to have casual sex, so I'm going to restrict myself even though I don't want to, or else I'll be bad."
That's actually a good thing for her. Casual sex is bad for you. It's not a healthy practice, even with a condom (although condoms make it much safer than it would otherwise be). It drastically increases rates of cancer, for one.

Men should be judged more harshly for being sluts, and everybody should use safer sexual practices.
EquALLity wrote:And it seems reasonable to say that it's a burden to feel that you can't talk about doing something because there is a stigma around doing it.
I feel no burden for being unable to talk about my bowel movements openly, in public. Maybe I'm really proud of them too, but that's a private matter.
Why should I deserve to be allowed to discuss them without suffering the consequences of social stigma due to it?

Men are also not completely without stigma for talking about their sexual exploits; there are many environments where this is inappropriate.
But I already said, several times, that YES, being able to brag about sexual exploits and be congratulated is a male privilege. That doesn't negate the still very real female privilege of having much easier access to sex if it is desired.

These are minor issues.
And as I think Kyron mentioned, males are stigmatized for not having enough sex in those same circles, which is far MORE harmful than being stigmatized for having it, since this pressure increases their risk for STDs, and other undesirable direct consequences.

-Female privilege: NOT being pressured into having dangerously large amounts of casual sex, or be socially stigmatized

EquALLity wrote:She shouldn't have to keep it to herself if she doesn't want to when it isn't harmful to anybody.
She doesn't have to. There's no law against it. And I don't have to keep details about my bowel movements to myself either. But there are social consequences to sharing those details.
EquALLity wrote:Also, if she gets 'outed' by her partners somehow (like you go on to mention), she's going to get a lot of backlash.
Yes, but this can be largely avoided. Also, it's illegal to slander somebody like that. Sex is a private matter.
EquALLity wrote:Ok, they both have the choice, but when men choose to do that they are praised, and when women choose to do it they are deemed 'sluts'.
Which I listed as a male privilege. This is unrelated to female ability to have much easier access to sex anywhere/anytime/etc.
EquALLity wrote:But it's a harmful double standard.
Physically harmful?
Harmful to men, yes.

Encouraging and judging men based on their conquests is also harmful to women, because it pressured men to rape them. As if they don't have enough biological sex drive as it is.
EquALLity wrote:I'm talking about if both partners are ok with talking about it, not really gossip.
That may be fine, if neither of them care about it, and they aren't bothering people who don't want to hear it with TMI.
EquALLity wrote:Why, though? What exactly is the issue with it?
Talking about your sexual activity in public may make people uncomfortable, and for no practical reason (since it's not an important topic of conversation).
Why would I need to describe my poop to people? How is this information useful to them?

Talking about your sexual activity in public may also make others feel insecure, or inadequate -- and they shouldn't be made to feel that way, or pressured to have sex themselves.

What good does it do to brag publicly about sexual exploits?

When you bag some really hot guy or girl, you may want to brag about it. You may want to show your friends pictures, and talk about who it was. How does this help them? How does this enrich their lives, and provide them with a positive influence, or affirmation of their worth as human beings?
It doesn't. It helps you, and improves your social stature in whatever group has identified this as an important element of social hierarchy.
And it doesn't really help anybody to be using these kinds of metrics of social value -- it just hurts everybody by increasing proliferation of disease, rape, unwanted pregnancies, etc. and makes other people feel shitty.

User avatar
knowledge is power
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:13 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: Sydney Aus

Post by knowledge is power » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:37 am

brimstoneSalad wrote:
If a woman wants to have a lot of casual sex, on the other hand, she suffers nothing keeping that to herself and her sexual partners.
All she loses is the privilege of bragging about it, which doesn't lessen her ability to engage in the act.
KIP, was that what you were trying to say? That it's impossible to enjoy sex properly without the ability to brag about it later?
That's my point. Society gives that privilege to men to have multiple sex partners but not to women. So women have to keep quiet about it, but men don't.
Bragging? I don't want to brag. Men don't need to brag either. Just talking about an intimate partner, whether a 'fling' or an ongoing relationship is risky for a woman if she has had many of any kind of relationship. It doesn't have to be a casual one.
'Heresy makes for progress'
- Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner - 1897

User avatar
knowledge is power
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:13 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: Sydney Aus

Post by knowledge is power » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:51 am

brimstoneSalad wrote:
The fact that men are usually stronger than women is at the root of the danger women face from men. This is very much biological.
I disagree. If strength was the most important factor in rape, then most women would be raped. Rape is mostly about what society teaches men about women. In Islamic countries and most African countries society teaches men that sexual assault of women is not a big deal, or they can blame the woman for it. So rape is much more common there as opposed to say, western countries like The Netherlands and Sweden for example, who are much more progressive and where sexual assault is much less frequent by comparison. Most men in these countries, with the exception of some immigrants from less egalitarian societies, think that sexual assault of a woman is abhorrent.
Last edited by knowledge is power on Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
'Heresy makes for progress'
- Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner - 1897

User avatar
knowledge is power
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:13 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: Sydney Aus

Post by knowledge is power » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:10 am

brimstoneSalad wrote: -Enjoy a physically less lethal workplace, with men very disproportionately representing workplace deaths.

-The man will be expected to pay for things on a date (free food, entertainment, etc.)

-Can wear "male clothing" without social cost; men can not wear "girl clothes"; women also enjoy much greater clothing options in general.
-Male workplace deaths are certainly more frequent in blue collar jobs, because women are not largely welcomed by work peers in blue collar. I have experienced this personally for fifteen years. If there were equal amounts of women in say, warehouse jobs, then women would be more prone to work place accidents. Not equally though, women tend to be less reckless than men with driving jobs. I doubt warehouse jobs will ever be equal as women have less interest generally in this type of work. The same can be said of more 'female' dominated jobs such as nursing. Never be equally represented because some men are just not interested in this type of work.

-In Australia, my experience has been that many women would prefer to go dutch on paying the bill for a date. Sometimes because they don't want the guy to think she 'owes' him something. Mostly because it's not fair for a guy to pay.

-Society tells men that if they wear women's clothing it is humiliating. This is a sexist issue for women, as they can wear men's clothing and not feel humiliated by it, because there's no shame in looking like a man. But there IS shame in looking like a woman. Most men wouldn't wear female attire because of this reason.
'Heresy makes for progress'
- Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner - 1897

User avatar
knowledge is power
Junior Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:13 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: Sydney Aus

Post by knowledge is power » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:13 am

According to dictionary.com and other dictionary websites, a privilege is something that is granted. A law or a right that is given to an individual over others.
For something biological you would use different terminology, such as advantage.

Privilege | Define Privilege at Dictionary.com

Which ever 'side' someone is on, they both can make this mistake.
'Heresy makes for progress'
- Hypatia Bradlaugh Bonner - 1897

User avatar
EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 2997
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Post by EquALLity » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:14 am

brimstoneSalad wrote:KIP suggested that women can not do this because of stigma, which just isn't true. You don't dismiss one claim of privilege by demonstrating another completely different claim of privilege on the other side.
Ok, sure, they *can*. But I don't think it's as easy for them because of the double standard.
brimstoneSalad wrote:We abstain from talking about many things every day, because it's just not normal social behavior.
The line there seems pretty arbitrary.

And even if it isn't, and there is some subconscious underlying component or reason that most people aren't aware of, that doesn't make it ok to condemn people who do talk about things that aren't 'normal', just because they aren't. I think you agree with that though.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Women can gossip about people, talk about shoes, hair, makeup, and nobody thinks anything of it. If a man wants to have these kinds of conversations, he'll be stigmatized for it.

Gender roles have defined certain things that are acceptable practice to discuss for men and women, and they vary in different contexts.

I explicitly noted that it is a matter of male privilege that they can brag about their sexual exploits and be congratulated for them.
Alright, yeah. I wasn't denying that. I'm not saying that women are more oppressed than men in the west because of the slut thing.

Also, I don't know why you keep calling it bragging. It doesn't have to be bragging.
brimstoneSalad wrote:That's up to her, if she believes what society says.
Society says atheists are bad, do you feel like a bad person? Or do you roll your eyes, and consider people who say that to be idiots?
I wasn't saying it was rational to accept whatever ideas society holds, just that it happens, and in this case might make women feel like sluts.

As to the choice idea... I don't think it's really like choosing between chocolate and vanilla soy ice cream.
brimstoneSalad wrote: And what exactly do you propose be done about it? Should we do away with freedom of speech, and not allow people to share ill informed beliefs?
We should spread the idea that the stigma is wrong, and spread liberalism in general.
brimstoneSalad wrote:That's actually a good thing for her. Casual sex is bad for you. It's not a healthy practice, even with a condom (although condoms make it much safer than it would otherwise be). It drastically increases rates of cancer, for one.

Men should be judged more harshly for being sluts, and everybody should use safer sexual practices.
I don't see why it'd be more harmful than ordinary sex...

But that's an interesting point, then. That doesn't make it right to use a harmful double standard in reaction though.
brimstoneSalad wrote:I feel no burden for being unable to talk about my bowel movements openly, in public. Maybe I'm really proud of them too, but that's a private matter.
Why should I deserve to be allowed to discuss them without suffering the consequences of social stigma due to it?
The stigma there isn't really with having the bowel movements, just talking about them. It's different with the slut thing.
brimstoneSalad wrote:She doesn't have to. There's no law against it. And I don't have to keep details about my bowel movements to myself either. But there are social consequences to sharing those details.
I wasn't saying that she was literally forced from talking about it.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Physically harmful?
Harmful to men, yes.

Encouraging and judging men based on their conquests is also harmful to women, because it pressured men to rape them. As if they don't have enough biological sex drive as it is.
I didn't mean physically harmful, but I agree with all that.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Talking about your sexual activity in public may make people uncomfortable, and for no practical reason (since it's not an important topic of conversation).
Why would I need to describe my poop to people? How is this information useful to them?

Talking about your sexual activity in public may also make others feel insecure, or inadequate -- and they shouldn't be made to feel that way, or pressured to have sex themselves.

What good does it do to brag publicly about sexual exploits?

When you bag some really hot guy or girl, you may want to brag about it. You may want to show your friends pictures, and talk about who it was. How does this help them? How does this enrich their lives, and provide them with a positive influence, or affirmation of their worth as human beings?
It doesn't. It helps you, and improves your social stature in whatever group has identified this as an important element of social hierarchy.
And it doesn't really help anybody to be using these kinds of metrics of social value -- it just hurts everybody by increasing proliferation of disease, rape, unwanted pregnancies, etc. and makes other people feel shitty.
Again, why bragging?

That's a good point, that it may actually be harmful to talk about it. But using a harmful double standard to combat that isn't really ideal.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest