Religious belief is inherently arrogant

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revankatal
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by revankatal »

well not to be taken literally as 100,000 years. And no... there were times that 365 days was not a year, and 7 days was not a week, and 24 hours not a day. history has proof of this, (apologies i have no time to google it but i learned this in history class - the non religious history class where they spoke facts)

Truth is perspective, he said DAYS he never said HUMAN DAYS - He never said 24 hours either.
And apparently, no he didn't want us to know how long it took Him to create everything. Why? I don't know don't ask me
And my case and point - I'm the child, and God is my dad. How and why he does things is beyond me. (please refer to my analogy)
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Neptual
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by Neptual »

revankatal wrote:well not to be taken literally as 100,000 years. And no... there were times that 365 days was not a year, and 7 days was not a week, and 24 hours not a day. history has proof of this, (apologies i have no time to google it but i learned this in history class - the non religious history class where they spoke facts)

Truth is perspective, he said DAYS he never said HUMAN DAYS - He never said 24 hours either.
And apparently, no he didn't want us to know how long it took Him to create everything. Why? I don't know don't ask me
And my case and point - I'm the child, and God is my dad. How and why he does things is beyond me. (please refer to my analogy)
Unless I've seen proof (which I still haven't) that time magically stopped between the time in which it happened in history then I will continue to ask you what makes a "human day" different from a regular day? As far as I'm concerned they're both the same thing to me.
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revankatal
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by revankatal »

well not to be taken literally as 100,000 years. And no... there were times that 365 days was not a year, and 7 days was not a week, and 24 hours not a day. history has proof of this, (apologies i have no time to google it but i learned this in history class - the non religious history class where they spoke facts)

I say it again... time wasn't always what it is now. (im realllyyy to lazy to google links pointing to historical fact that the way we have measured time has changed over the course of history)
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by brimstoneSalad »

revankatal wrote:meh... I tend to be more NON VERBATIM of the bible when it says things, to believe in God also means to believe you can never understand Him. Whatever is in his head will never fit in yours not by a long shot.
This is basically theological non-cognitivism, if you're honest about it.

I appreciate that you understand some science, and limit your faith to a more reasoned "god of the gaps" in that sense.

I encourage you, however, to explore morality more, and consider giving your life more meaning beyond self-pleasuring hedonism (most Christians are hedonists without realizing it).

dan1073 wrote: First of all your argument for saying that one second to god is around 100,000 years to us just isn't correct. We know know that days are counted by the Earth's rotation around the sun, this means that even if god made the earth it would still have to evolve around the sun thus creating a single day as we know it.
Days are not based on Earth's rotation around the sun- that's a year. Days are based on Earth's rotation about its own axis, caused by its angular momentum- not its orbit (though angular momentum is related to orbit indirectly).

Don't let a theist correct you on that. Get your facts straight :P

Also, the genesis stories (there are two of them) are widely regarded (along with the arc) by the vast majority of theologians to be metaphorical- which includes almost all Jews (except morons like Ben Stein), Catholicism, and the more liberal protestant denominations.

The Bible, old testament and new, is filled with allegory and figurative literature.

The challenge to a theologian is how to justify taking one part literally, while taking another part figuratively, when the decision to do so is a subjective process without turning the so called absolute laws of god into nothing more than human whim.

The answer is that you can not- you have to use human judgment, and logical moral philosophy from outside the Bible to be able to make good decisions on what to take out of the Bible (which makes the bible itself redundant).

You got at that a little with this part:
dan1073 wrote: It's pointless to try to interpret something that can be interpreted into anything. The Bible is one example of this.
But that should have been the brunt of your argument.

dan1073 wrote: And if god really wanted us to be sure about how long it took for him to create this Earth why not say the exact number of years it took if your theory is correct.
Questioning god's motivations is a fool's errand- any Christian can provide ad-hoc explanations, or appeal to the mystery of god, until you run out of breath.

Focus on larger philosophical and logical issues- not so much on details of doctrine.
revankatal
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

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i never liked doctrine.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by brimstoneSalad »

revankatal wrote:well not to be taken literally as 100,000 years. And no... there were times that 365 days was not a year, and 7 days was not a week, and 24 hours not a day. history has proof of this, (apologies i have no time to google it but i learned this in history class - the non religious history class where they spoke facts)

I say it again... time wasn't always what it is now. (im realllyyy to lazy to google links pointing to historical fact that the way we have measured time has changed over the course of history)
Don't be lazy.

The Earth's rotation (which defines the length of a literal day) is slowing down. Which means days used to be shorter, not longer.

But what you're really looking for is probably the standard apologetic fare of claiming mistranslation of the Hebrew word "yom", which according to apologists has numerous meanings (like "age").

I knew that off the top of my head.

When an atheist has to help you with your apologetics, that's just really sad.

If you want to play with the big boys, like I said, don't be lazy. You can do better than that.
revankatal
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

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lazy by definition stops me from doing anything you just told me to do....
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by brimstoneSalad »

revankatal wrote:lazy by definition stops me from doing anything you just told me to do....
Why do people brag about being lazy?

Do modern people think that's some kind of virtue?

Do they think it's some kind of valid disability or excuse, which justifies sloth and inaction?

"Oh, sorry, you're lazy- I didn't know. That totally excuses you then."

Is that what we're supposed to say?


We talk a lot about things not being people's fault today.

You were born with a disability? Retarded? Not your fault, you were born that way.
You're crazy and you killed people? Not your fault, you were temporarily insane.
You're depressed and you drowned your children? Not your fault, you were depressed.

And yeah, sure- sometimes that makes sense.

But then what even is "fault" supposed to mean?
Is anything anybody's fault any more?

Screw it-- there are still some things that just flat out ARE people's faults.
Things that people weren't born with, and that aren't attributable completely to a clinical condition.
There are such things as character flaws, there are such things as faults, for which nobody and nothing is to blame but the person presenting them.


Being weak willed, being lazy; if anything in this universe is anybody's fault, that is.
Laziness is the quintessence of a character flaw. It's the rock bottom definition of a character flaw.
It's pathetic, and it's disgusting.

Every now and then, the Catholics get something right (even a broke clock is right twice a day), and a lot of what they say about sloth is right on the money.

Good going being proud of that, and advertising it like it's some universal excuse from accountability.

Have you no shame?
revankatal
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

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Have you no shame? nope...
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TheVeganAtheist
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Re: Religious belief is inherently arrogant

Post by TheVeganAtheist »

brimstoneSalad wrote:That's all well and good, it is arrogant, but that's not really a strong argument against the validity of their beliefs.

A theist might say: "It's not arrogant, it's just true. I trust god's word, not my own opinions."

It has yet to get at the heart of a strong argument against theism; it's just a subjective impression of the practice.
good point. Im not sure I would use the arrogance point to try and argue a theist out of their beliefs, but It is an interesting hypocrisy that is readily apparent to those that leave religious beliefs behind.
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