Rationality Rules is wrong (sort of). Thoughts on TransGate

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Jebus
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Re: Rationality Rules is wrong (sort of). Thoughts on TransGate

Post by Jebus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:44 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:59 pm
transitioning takes time, and professional athletes quickly lose their edges without training (or with insufficient training). A lowered muscle memory even for a short time would see quick losses.
Sure, but it comes back quickly once training resumes. Also, why would you assume that a trans gender person would stop training?
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:59 pm
Would you have transitioned if it were an option?
No, I appreciate my penis too much. However, I think this is what motivated Renee Richards to transition.
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:59 pm
That's like chopping off your legs to compete in the Paralympics.
There is no money in the Paralympics.
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:59 pm
And even if it did happen a few times, why would that matter?
People make stupid decisions that they regret. Many laws are in place to protect people from this.
Jebus wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:47 pm
I don't really think fairness is a meaningful concept unless the parameter you are testing is well defined, and it is not in sports.
Who can run 100 meters the fastest? What's not well-defined about that? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm

Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:44 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:59 pm
transitioning takes time, and professional athletes quickly lose their edges without training (or with insufficient training). A lowered muscle memory even for a short time would see quick losses.
Sure, but it comes back quickly once training resumes.
But that new training would be done with the lower muscle memory of a woman.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:44 pm
Also, why would you assume that a trans gender person would stop training?
Even with the same amount of training, now being a woman it would be less than before. She would have to increase training after transition to just break even.

Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:44 pm
However, I think this is what motivated Renee Richards to transition.
Is there evidence of that?
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:44 pm
People make stupid decisions that they regret. Many laws are in place to protect people from this.
So is banning trans athletes meant to protect the tiny fraction of stupid people who have in their minds a great idea to cheat the system at the expense of alienating legitimate trans people who did nothing wrong?
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:44 pm
Who can run 100 meters the fastest? What's not well-defined about that? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
What is who? What is run?

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Post by Jebus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
But that new training would be done with the lower muscle memory of a woman.
A sex change doesn't include a brain transplant. Even if her "new" muscle memory is lower, she would still benefit from her previous learning.

Also, why would you assume that a trans gender person would stop training?
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
Even with the same amount of training, now being a woman it would be less than before. She would have to increase training after transition to just break even.
Why would it be less than before? Even if she had to increase training why would that be a problem? Most elite athletes are already training at the optimum level. More is not necessarily better.
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
Is there evidence of that?
Yes, I just wrote that I think so.

Whether or not this is why she went ahead with the sex change is harder to prove. It is not something many people would admit to. Given the crazy things people do for attention (think Munchhausen and Munchhausen by proxy), I think my theory makes a lot of sense.
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
So is banning trans athletes meant to protect the tiny fraction of stupid people who have in their minds a great idea to cheat the system at the expense of alienating legitimate trans people who did nothing wrong?
Tiny fraction!!! Why would you assume that?

"Nothing wrong." Perhaps this is a topic for a separate discussion but do you think people deciding to do a sex change usually make a good choice?
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
What is who? What is run?
Can you give me an example of an event in which you do not know the answer to those two questions?
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:41 pm

Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
A sex change doesn't include a brain transplant. Even if her "new" muscle memory is lower, she would still benefit from her previous learning.
Only for a short time, because the new training would be less relative to muscle memory ability.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
Also, why would you assume that a trans gender person would stop training?
Again, I do not. Even if she's training the same number of hours, she is in effect training less now because that training is less effective.
Due to diminishing returns, she might have to train twice as much to make up the difference, which may not even be possible.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
Even if she had to increase training why would that be a problem?
See above. It may not even be physically possible due to the number of hours in the day.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
Most elite athletes are already training at the optimum level. More is not necessarily better.
They are training all they can already, right. There are physical and emotional costs that limit it, and simply time (you also need to sleep). And she may not be able to train more without perhaps a lot of drugs. A transition is going to lower the results of her training. The old muscle memory that benefited from being a man is going to fade quickly (likely much sooner than a completed transition, which is also going to take more time away from training).
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
Is there evidence of that?
Yes, I just wrote that I think so.
What evidence makes you think that? Just a feeling, or is there a leaked comment or something?
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
Given the crazy things people do for attention (think Munchhausen and Munchhausen by proxy), I think my theory makes a lot of sense.
It may be possible, but perhaps being possible doesn't mean it has happened at all much less that it's the case in any given instance.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
Tiny fraction!!! Why would you assume that?
For every legit trans athlete do you think there are hundreds of men who would lose their penises and become women when they don't want to for a speculative and unproven advantage in a female sporting event for relatively modest prize money?

And even if there are hundreds of probably bad people who have lost their penises in an attempt to cheat at the expense of setting back trans-acceptance through their exploitation of transitioning to do it, how exactly is that worse than just defaulting to an anti-trans state? Surely there are more actual trans people who suffer from being regarded as unequal than there are stupid people losing their penises in an attempt to cheat. And if they were willing to lose their penises for a chance at a little prize money, they probably weren't *that* attached to them anyway.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm

"Nothing wrong." Perhaps this is a topic for a separate discussion but do you think people deciding to do a sex change usually make a good choice?
Likely not if they can not afford the surgeries needed to pass. If they can pass, though, very likely so.
Jebus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:24 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:12 pm
What is who? What is run?
Can you give me an example of an event in which you do not know the answer to those two questions?
Literally the one I asked about: racing.
Is there any event in which these questions are adequately answered?

You can absolutely have a contest of who can make the fastest fermion. A fermion is well defined by physics, and simple speed (not merely mode of locomotion) is objective.

Trying to define who qualifies and what amounts to running is far more complex, and I'm not sure you can do it. I'm fairly certain no extant rule system (for a "human" sport) has adequately done so.

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