Does God want us to judge him?

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Does God want us to judge him?

Post by Greatest I am » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:56 pm

Does God want us to judge him?

I think that God wants us to judge him. We are to emulate Jesus. Jesus judged God and found him wanting.

Upon taking the judgement seat, Jesus indicated that it was time to retire Yahweh. Jesus saw Yahweh as no longer fit to rule over or judge man. Man had in essence graduated to his rightful place as the judge of all the Gods.

Christians, who are told by their own scriptures to judge righteously, are not doing so when it comes to Yahweh.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Yahweh is quite a vile God. It is no wonder that Yahweh does not show his face around Christians. They would kill him. Jesus did say that he came to bring War. Perhaps he meant war against God, which would be following Jewish tradition.

If God wants us to judge him, why do most Christians not judge God in a righteous and moral manner?

Place no God above me, means that God wants us to judge all the Gods, including himself, to insure he is the best of the best. How else could we know that Yahweh was the best God to follow?

Do you agree, or are we not supposed to judge God?

Regards
DL

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Post by Red » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:15 pm

Of course, most of us here don't believe in God, and we have criticized religion quite a bit back in the day when the forum first came around, but to answer your question, no, I don't think the Christians believe that they have the right to test God.
Luke 4:12 wrote:But Jesus replied, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."
When Jesus said that, he was referring to Deuteronomy 6:16.
Deuteronomy 6:16 wrote:Do not test the LORD your God as you tested Him at Massah.
I'm pretty sure you're aware of this but you didn't mention it because you want someone to say it so they fall into a trap of sorts.
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Post by Greatest I am » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:43 pm

Red wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:15 pm
Of course, most of us here don't believe in God, and we have criticized religion quite a bit back in the day when the forum first came around, but to answer your question, no, I don't think the Christians believe that they have the right to test God.
Luke 4:12 wrote:But Jesus replied, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."
When Jesus said that, he was referring to Deuteronomy 6:16.
Deuteronomy 6:16 wrote:Do not test the LORD your God as you tested Him at Massah.
I'm pretty sure you're aware of this but you didn't mention it because you want someone to say it so they fall into a trap of sorts.
No. I do not know everything although I like to think I know more than most, generally speaking. :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:

Testing moral idea is not the same as testing power.

I appreciate that you are not a believer, but how can they insure that they put no one over Yahweh without knowing where Yahweh is on all issues.

For instance, picking an easy example, when Einstein put his theory, theists would have had to look at God's ideas to see or insure that Einstein's theories were kept below Gods in belief.

Galileo just hated that testing.

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DL

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Post by Red » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:01 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:43 pm

No. I do not know everything although I like to think I know more than most, generally speaking. :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:
Well, you definitely know more about Christianity than most Christians.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:43 pm
Testing moral idea is not the same as testing power.
But isn't it still putting God to the test?
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:43 pm
I appreciate that you are not a believer, but how can they insure that they put no one over Yahweh without knowing where Yahweh is on all issues.
That's definitely true. As I implied before, most Christians know crap about their own religion (I've been going to Private School for 3 and a half years now, it's interesting to get first-hand experience if you know what I mean. Even the few preppy religious kids I met are still fairly ignorant of their religion). The religion classes I took in grades Freshman to Junior had a lot of kids, even Catholic kids, pass by about 3 points (it's odd that the atheist in the room almost always participated and did very well in the classes. Those classes were a lot of fun).

To go off on a tangent, I personally think that the Old Testament has far more interesting stories, while the New Testament has much better morals with weaker stories (aside from Revelations). I honestly think more people should read the Bible since most Christians haven't, and it's a gripping read in general.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:43 pm
For instance, picking an easy example, when Einstein put his theory, theists would have had to look at God's ideas to see or insure that Einstein's theories were kept below Gods in belief.
I assume you're referring to relativity.
Einstein was an atheist, and didn't really take God into account. Most people don't understand relativity (not saying I do but anyway), and theists probably won't even think to do such a thing.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:43 pm
Galileo just hated that testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVCtkzIXYzQ
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Post by Greatest I am » Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:20 pm

Red

All I can do is fall back to the notion that if one does not test God on all issues, moral and otherwise, a theist might mistakenly put someone above God in ability or thought.

For instance. One might say that most men are better than God at reproduction because god can only make half breed chimeras while men can reproduce true.

Or one might go to the injustice of genocide and choose a God would cure instead of kill the way Jesus said he came to do.

I thank you for the knowledge compliment. As an esoteric ecumenist, I try to keep abreast and informed of religions.

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DL

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Post by Lay Vegan » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:22 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:56 pm
Does God want us to judge him?

I think that God wants us to judge him. We are to emulate Jesus. Jesus judged God and found him wanting.

Upon taking the judgement seat, Jesus indicated that it was time to retire Yahweh. Jesus saw Yahweh as no longer fit to rule over or judge man. Man had in essence graduated to his rightful place as the judge of all the Gods.

Christians, who are told by their own scriptures to judge righteously, are not doing so when it comes to Yahweh.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_the ... s/5-21.htm

This is just bad theology.

The word used for “prove” (dokimazete) in this verse is Greek for “test, examine, scrutinize.”
1 Thessalonians 5:21 wrote: Hold fast to that which is good
“Good” meaning that which is moral and in accordance with the word of God.

The verse clearly means that each individual has 2 duties. The first is to “prove all things.” A man who has applied the proper tests to prophetic utterances, and has found out what is truth. That is, be wary of what prophets propagate. The second duty is to hold fast to that which is true. Paul is urging Christians to be skeptical of the various opinions and doctrines which are professed to them by their religious teachers, then to make sure that we hold fast to the true i.e, prevent those morals from slipping away.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:56 pm
Yahweh is quite a vile God. It is no wonder that Yahweh does not show his face around Christians. They would kill him. Jesus did say that he came to bring War. Perhaps he meant war against God, which would be following Jewish tradition.
I don't know what this means.

Numerous biblical versus inform that Christians are not to judge others on their mistakes. That is, not condemn or physically punish others for their sinful deeds.
Matthew 7:1 wrote: Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 wrote: You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
The word used for "judge" (krinete) translates roughly to condemn or punish. While some Christians mistakenly believe that this calls for insistent moral relativism, this is not to say that Christians are unable to recognize when certain actions (murder, idolatry, greed) are not in accordance with God's law.

Unless you can provide biblical evidence of God violating God's law, then I'm not sure how how this grants Christians the power to judge their own God.

Edit: I realize that even if there were evidence of God violating his own law, Christians would argue that God has the ability to simply modify the law. It's safe to say that Christians do not believe that it's okay to judge their own God. Merely to use his standard as a toolkit of analysis of our actions.

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Post by Greatest I am » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:35 am

Lay Vegan wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:22 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:56 pm
Does God want us to judge him?

I think that God wants us to judge him. We are to emulate Jesus. Jesus judged God and found him wanting.

Upon taking the judgement seat, Jesus indicated that it was time to retire Yahweh. Jesus saw Yahweh as no longer fit to rule over or judge man. Man had in essence graduated to his rightful place as the judge of all the Gods.

Christians, who are told by their own scriptures to judge righteously, are not doing so when it comes to Yahweh.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_the ... s/5-21.htm

This is just bad theology.

The word used for “prove” (dokimazete) in this verse is Greek for “test, examine, scrutinize.”
1 Thessalonians 5:21 wrote: Hold fast to that which is good
“Good” meaning that which is moral and in accordance with the word of God.

The verse clearly means that each individual has 2 duties. The first is to “prove all things.” A man who has applied the proper tests to prophetic utterances, and has found out what is truth. That is, be wary of what prophets propagate. The second duty is to hold fast to that which is true. Paul is urging Christians to be skeptical of the various opinions and doctrines which are professed to them by their religious teachers, then to make sure that we hold fast to the true i.e, prevent those morals from slipping away.
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:56 pm
Yahweh is quite a vile God. It is no wonder that Yahweh does not show his face around Christians. They would kill him. Jesus did say that he came to bring War. Perhaps he meant war against God, which would be following Jewish tradition.
I don't know what this means.

Numerous biblical versus inform that Christians are not to judge others on their mistakes. That is, not condemn or physically punish others for their sinful deeds.
Matthew 7:1 wrote: Do not judge, or you will be judged.
Romans 2:1 wrote: You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
The word used for "judge" (krinete) translates roughly to condemn or punish. While some Christians mistakenly believe that this calls for insistent moral relativism, this is not to say that Christians are unable to recognize when certain actions (murder, idolatry, greed) are not in accordance with God's law.

Unless you can provide biblical evidence of God violating God's law, then I'm not sure how how this grants Christians the power to judge their own God.

Edit: I realize that even if there were evidence of God violating his own law, Christians would argue that God has the ability to simply modify the law. It's safe to say that Christians do not believe that it's okay to judge their own God. Merely to use his standard as a toolkit of analysis of our actions.
Nice post. Thanks.

So in effect, we have to know God's laws. Let's see if we can dither put his killing law.

Would God say to us, do not kill, then says do as I say and not as I do as he goes about killing?

I did giggle somewhat at this.
"Numerous biblical versus inform that Christians are not to judge others on their mistakes."

Then how could we know they are mistakes so as not to do them? This aside though as my question to you needs an answer first.

Regards
DL
Last edited by Greatest I am on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Greatest I am » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:40 am

Lay Vegan wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:22 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:56 pm
Yahweh is quite a vile God. It is no wonder that Yahweh does not show his face around Christians. They would kill him. Jesus did say that he came to bring War. Perhaps he meant war against God, which would be following Jewish tradition.
I don't know what this means.
Israel means or is defined as to strive both for and against God, which is why Jacob fought with God or his angel.

Jesus also said he came to bring war and not peace which to me is him following Jacob's ways.

Jesus did not have much respect for Jewish tradition.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Regards
DL

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Post by Lay Vegan » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:30 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:35 am
So in effect, we have to know God's laws. Let's see if we can dither put his killing law.

Would God say to us, do not kill, then says do as I say and not as I do as he goes about killing?
That’s a common misinterpretation. The commandment is actually “You Shall Not Murder” and the imperative is in the context of unlawful killing.

In fact, there are typically 2 separate Hebrew and Greek words used in the Bible for “murder” and “kill.” The former implies unlawful killing, and the latter implies “righteous” killing. Not all killing is defined as murder in the Bible.
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:35 am
Then how could we know they are mistakes so as not to do them? This aside though as my question to you needs an answer first.
I’ve already answered this question. The requests given not to punish others for their “sinful” deeds is not necessarily an argument for nihilistic moral relativism. Christians are fully capable of evaluating certain actions like idolatry and recognizing when they are “immoral” (not in accordance with God’s law). The verses describe the act of persecuting people because of their deeds, not by merely pointing out that their actions are immoral.

Christian apologists could easily evade your arguments by claiming that God is the arbiter of moral law, and thus can modify and change them to fit his own actions, or apply them exclusively to humans. They assert that God isn't bound by the rules of anything He's supposed to be the supreme power, answerable to no one. I think a much more interesting discussion to have here is whether or not God is subject to the laws of logic, which Christian apologists claim he is in command of (can he create a circular square?)

While I don't believe in God in the physical sense, as a physical force that interacts directly with the natural world, it is imperative that we (atheists) understand the basic tenets of whatever belief system we are critiquing. I think when you use bad theology to ague against Christians, you're just giving them ammunition to make us look like dogmatists.

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Post by Greatest I am » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:33 pm

Lay Vegan wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:30 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:35 am
So in effect, we have to know God's laws. Let's see if we can dither put his killing law.

Would God say to us, do not kill, then says do as I say and not as I do as he goes about killing?
That’s a common misinterpretation. The commandment is actually “You Shall Not Murder” and the imperative is in the context of unlawful killing.

In fact, there are typically 2 separate Hebrew and Greek words used in the Bible for “murder” and “kill.” The former implies unlawful killing, and the latter implies “righteous” killing. Not all killing is defined as murder in the Bible.
Greatest I am wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:35 am
Then how could we know they are mistakes so as not to do them? This aside though as my question to you needs an answer first.
I’ve already answered this question. The requests given not to punish others for their “sinful” deeds is not necessarily an argument for nihilistic moral relativism. Christians are fully capable of evaluating certain actions like idolatry and recognizing when they are “immoral” (not in accordance with God’s law). The verses describe the act of persecuting people because of their deeds, not by merely pointing out that their actions are immoral.

Christian apologists could easily evade your arguments by claiming that God is the arbiter of moral law, and thus can modify and change them to fit his own actions, or apply them exclusively to humans. They assert that God isn't bound by the rules of anything He's supposed to be the supreme power, answerable to no one. I think a much more interesting discussion to have here is whether or not God is subject to the laws of logic, which Christian apologists claim he is in command of (can he create a circular square?)

While I don't believe in God in the physical sense, as a physical force that interacts directly with the natural world, it is imperative that we (atheists) understand the basic tenets of whatever belief system we are critiquing. I think when you use bad theology to ague against Christians, you're just giving them ammunition to make us look like dogmatists.
I try never to do that.

"Christians are fully capable of evaluating certain actions like idolatry and recognizing when they are “immoral” (not in accordance with God’s law)."

I disagree as Christians are idol worshipers and that does not seem to phase them at all. They idolize Jesus more than Yahweh and in a sense breaking the first commandment. Sure, they will then go into their Trinity garbage but that does not sop them from idolizing Jesus, their free ride out od hell.

As to your notion of God being above the law. That can be refuted by the fact that scriptures tell us to emulate God in all ways and if he can put himself above the law, so can and should we.

Regards
DL

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