IQ differences between racial groups

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Jebus
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IQ differences between racial groups

Post by Jebus »

I thought Stefan Molyneux did a good job talking about this issue without coming across as a bigot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0KKc6GbeNo&t=13s

I have always worried about the implications of bringing this up for the following two reasons:

It will give racists some "see, I told you so" pleasure.
It may affect the self-confidence of some black people and make them assume that they are less intelligent than they actually are.

However, as Stefam Molyneux points out: How can we start working on solutions if we can't even pinpoint the problem?

For example, one solution would be to encourage interracial procreation. The sooner humans merge into one race, the sooner racial IQ differences will go away.
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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Some people use this as a descriptive talking point as if they're just trying to lay down stone cold facts, but implicitly they try to smuggle in some normative points on why some people should be treated differently or whatever their agenda may be.
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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Since differences in testing tend to be in the range of the Flynn effect, it's pretty much impossible to claim it's genetic. There are also known confounding variables in environment like nutrition and heavy metal exposure, and we are learning about more all the time (like the effect of viruses prenatally: look at the Zika virus which causes microcephaly, no reason to believe there aren't effects from other exposures too that are more subtle).

Saying small IQ differences between population groups are genetic is kind of like saying the male-female wage gap is caused by sexism. Too many confounding variables to rule out. Could be in part, but that doesn't mean it is.
The funny thing is that conservatives tend the believe the former and reject the latter, while liberals tend to believe the latter and reject the former... and they're both the same issue of assuming a certain cause without ruling out everything else.

The point is, believing that IQ differences are genetic without good evidence may implicate a certain underlying bias in favor of believing that (arguably racist biases), because it's very easy not to believe that (and really should be the null hypothesis).
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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I didn't listen to the whole video because it become intolerable, observational differences in group IQ doesn't tell you whether those differences are due to IQ or some other factor. It also doesn't help that the groups that are ranking lower in IQ are those that have a history of being exploited by the very groups that rank higher. Further doesn't help that the IQ tests themselves were created by the group that happens to rank high.

But I don't think it would be surprising that there are behavioral differences between different ethnic groups, we've been somewhat genetically separated and subsisted in different environments which may have selected for different behavior. The development of civilization itself would likely create a good deal of selection pressures and it would seem group IQ scores match ancestry in a civilization pretty well.

But its not clear what value there is in even considering group IQ differences. Even if we assume there is some genetic component....then what? Members of the group would exist on a spectrum and therefore there would be no reason to deny an individual equal opportunity compared to individuals in other groups. So the entire intent of the discuss does seem to be rooted in racism.
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:57 am observational differences in group IQ doesn't tell you whether those differences are due to IQ or some other factor.


What other factors could be involved??? IQ tests measure IQ and they do so very accurately.
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:57 amIt also doesn't help that the groups that are ranking lower in IQ are those that have a history of being exploited by the very groups that rank higher. Further doesn't help that the IQ tests themselves were created by the group that happens to rank high.


Is this another bullshit excuse for not believing in things you don't want to be true, or are you referring to the potential negative consequences of publicizing and/or discussing the results in an open forum?
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:57 amBut I don't think it would be surprising that there are behavioral differences between different ethnic groups, we've been somewhat genetically separated and subsisted in different environments which may have selected for different behavior.


Behavioral differences??? This thread is about IQ test results.
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:57 amEven if we assume there is some genetic component....then what? Members of the group would exist on a spectrum and therefore there would be no reason to deny an individual equal opportunity compared to individuals in other groups.
In my opinion race should be left out of the discussion. Employment decisions, for example, should be entirely merit based, and anyone who makes assumptions, and ignores the large IQ variance that exists within each racial group is the one who should be labeled racist. Quotas, affirmative action policies, a failure to see any racial under representation as anything but racist, are unfair (and actually racist) to the racial groups one should expect to be over represented in high paying jobs (according to the IQ test results).
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pmSince differences in testing tend to be in the range of the Flynn effect, it's pretty much impossible to claim it's genetic.
Do you mean differences in test results or difference between tests, because the interracial test results are enormous?

brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pm There are also known confounding variables in environment like nutrition and heavy metal exposure, and we are learning about more all the time (like the effect of viruses prenatally: look at the Zika virus which causes microcephaly, no reason to believe there aren't effects from other exposures too that are more subtle).
I find this possible, but I find it more plausible that the result differences are due to genetics. Some races are clearly more physically (athletically) gifted than others, so I don't find it impossible to believe that some races are more intellectually gifted than others.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pm The funny thing is that conservatives tend the believe the former and reject the latter, while liberals tend to believe the latter and reject the former... and they're both the same issue of assuming a certain cause without ruling out everything else.
Do you mean that conservatives are more likely to attribute the differences to genetics, while the democrats would attribute it to environment? Most democrats I know would never admit that differences even exist and would label the tests as invalid and unreliable, or point to the fact that the tests are usually created and administered by the same race they (the test administers) say have the highest scores.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pm The point is, believing that IQ differences are genetic without good evidence may implicate a certain underlying bias in favor of believing that (arguably racist biases), because it's very easy not to believe that (and really should be the null hypothesis).

My only issue is that it is becoming increasingly harder to categorize a race.

One observation I find amusing is that the racial group most closely associated with racial superiority claims (white Caucasians) have lower IQ scores than two of the groups they have a history of oppressing (Jews and Asians).
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 am
brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:18 pmSince differences in testing tend to be in the range of the Flynn effect, it's pretty much impossible to claim it's genetic.
Do you mean differences in test results or difference between tests, because the interracial test results are enormous?
Differences in test results. Flynn effect is something like 15 points, and that's for groups with little other environmental variation. With other environmental factors like significant nutritional differences, heavy metals, diseases, drugs, etc. even 30 points wouldn't be that surprising.

This is why it's so important for women who are pregnant or who may become pregnant to take prenatal vitamins, avoid alcohol, etc.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 am I find this possible, but I find it more plausible that the result differences are due to genetics.
What makes that more plausible? It could also be a mix.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 amSome races are clearly more physically (athletically) gifted than others, so I don't find it impossible to believe that some races are more intellectually gifted than others.
Sure, but for all we know the "races" that score lowest are actually genetically prone to higher IQ than those that score the highest, and just due to terrible environmental circumstances (which are verifiably true in many cases) score worse.

E.g. Japanese have certain geographical advantages which facilitated the creation of stable advanced societies.
Moderate temperature, as islands: protective physical barriers & sea access for easy trade, proximity to larger resources/cultures to trade and basically parasitically draw information from.

Australia is plagued by the most venomous animals anywhere, for the most part is hot and dry, there's no geographic protection from other tribes and to create stable governments but it's also isolated from the rest of the world preventing exchange of knowledge.

There are places that are objectively more prone to advanced civilization regardless of the people who lived there, and those civilizations themselves have side effects on the people contributing to development of peak genetic potential for intelligence through good nutrition, hygiene, education, etc.

Now if Japanese had low IQs despite all of that and aboriginal Australians had high IQs despite all of that, it would be hard to doubt genetics. The point is that there are some pretty strong known confounding variables so at this time it's hard to point a finger at genetics until those are sorted out, and we just don't know how much each of them contribute.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 amMost democrats I know would never admit that differences even exist and would label the tests as invalid and unreliable, or point to the fact that the tests are usually created and administered by the same race they (the test administers) say have the highest scores.
Well, yes, some do that. That's not an honest approach to the issue either. We know IQ is important and measures something meaningful, and the best tests are of things like fluid IQ which don't carry any cultural baggage. You don't even need to use language to administer some IQ tests and the results still come through pretty well.

Some people have ideas of "multiple intelligences", that everybody is equal and we all just have different kinds of intelligence (like mental vs. physical). That's also an unfalsifiable stretch (call muscle memory intelligence? OK...), an it misses the point of IQ which is the important social success and income correlates. Even if you call physical stuff intelligence and pretend everybody who has more of one has less of something else, it's still not as important in the modern world as actual IQ.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 amOne observation I find amusing is that the racial group most closely associated with racial superiority claims (white Caucasians) have lower IQ scores than two of the groups they have a history of oppressing (Jews and Asians).
Interestingly, that may be why Jews were attacked. They had higher IQs for whatever reason than other Europeans, so they managed (fairly) to collect more material wealth and be in charge of a lot of business, land etc.
Other Europeans in those regions could only imagine that the Jews had gained this advantage unfairly (they couldn't actually be smarter, everybody is equal right?) and so ganged up on them and stole their wealth and persecuted them.

Speculatively, it may have been more the obsession with believing that everybody is equal (or should be) which generated the underlying mindset that supported the holocaust and the counter-reaction of believing Jews were inferior to compensate for white Europeans being actually inferior.
Visible disparities like that may be a problem, because they stoke racial tensions and insecurities.
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 amFlynn effect is something like 15 points
Not sure what you mean here. It took nearly 80 years for the Flynn effect to move 15 points.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 am I find this possible, but I find it more plausible that the result differences are due to genetics.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 amWhat makes that more plausible? It could also be a mix.
Yes, but a mix implies that genetic differences exist, and knowing how good modern IQ analysts are at controlling for external variables, I suggest genetics have a higher impact than environment.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 amfor all we know the "races" that score lowest are actually genetically prone to higher IQ than those that score the highest, and just due to terrible environmental circumstances (which are verifiably true in many cases) score worse.
Highly unlikely that the environment could have that much of an impact in modern IQ testing. Analysts are pretty damn good at controlling that kind of stuff. Also, let's consider the possibility that unfavorable environmental circumstances are caused by low IQ.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 amAustralia is plagued by the most venomous animals anywhere, for the most part is hot and dry, there's no geographic protection from other tribes and to create stable governments but it's also isolated from the rest of the world preventing exchange of knowledge.
I agree except I think geographic protection is the strength of the continent. Despite internal strifes, no other group (Australian aborigines) went so long without aggression from outsiders.

Another interesting side note is that the homo sapiens group who fucked the most neanderthals (Europeans) ended up doing OK IQ wise compared to Australians who had zero interaction with other human species.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 amThere are places that are objectively more prone to advanced civilization regardless of the people who lived there,
It is difficult to know if there were any IQ differences between racial groups back then. If there were one could assume that the smarter groups ended up in locations with a good climate, lack of dangerous animals, and geographic protection.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 amInterestingly, that may be why Jews were attacked.
It was a definitely a case of jealousy and shows that bigotry has different causes. Would the Charlottesville boys who chanted "Jews will not replace us" agree to a team IQ test against a random group of Ashkenazi jews? I doubt it.
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:43 am What other factors could be involved??? IQ tests measure IQ and they do so very accurately.
The idea of IQ is, in itself, rather controversial and without an alternative way to measure IQ there is no way to know whether current IQ testing is "very accurate". At best you can say the tests scores are persistent over time (people tend to score similarly as they age) and they are somewhat predictive of financial success in modern societies. But from this you cannot conclude that they accurately measure some sort of generalized intelligence.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:43 am Is this another bullshit excuse for not believing in things you don't want to be true, or are you referring to the potential negative consequences of publicizing and/or discussing the results in an open forum?
I'm not sure what you're calling a "bullshit excuse" but my point in that comment had nothing to do with publicizing the results. Its that the tests themselves could be biased since they were almost entirely designed by one group of people who just so happens to be one of the groups that ranks the highest.
Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:43 am Behavioral differences??? This thread is about IQ test results.
Yes, behavioral differences can lead to differences in perceived intelligence and how someone learns overtime. For example if you're around kids for any length of time you'll realize that some are just more curious than others. Curiosity itself is just a behavioral disposition, yet increased levels of curiosity will lead kids to learn about more things, think more about how things work, etc which can lead to greater overall intelligence.

The point is that behavioral differences are possible between groups and these differences can result in perceived or actual differences in IQ overtime.

Jebus wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:43 am In my opinion race should be left out of the discussion. Employment decisions, for example, should be entirely merit based, and anyone who makes assumptions, and ignores the large IQ variance that exists within each racial group is the one who should be labeled racist.
There are good reasons to provide aid to groups that have been historically marginalized, that is because poverty and low educational levels are persistent conditions that are difficult for people to break out of.

Also the idea that employment decisions or anything else in our economy is really "merit based" is a fiction, the biggest factor in your success is the success of the family and nation you're born into.
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Re: IQ differences between racial groups

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carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pm The idea of IQ is, in itself, rather controversial
Not at all controversial. Anyone who has studies a bit of psych testing knows that Stanford Binet type tests are among the most valid and reliable tests available.
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pmI'm not sure what you're calling a "bullshit excuse" but my point in that comment had nothing to do with publicizing the results. Its that the tests themselves could be biased since they were almost entirely designed by one group of people who just so happens to be one of the groups that ranks the highest.


That is exactily what I mean by bullshit excuse. I think you have a lot of work to do if that comes across as offensive or unrealistic.
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pmYes, behavioral differences can lead to differences in perceived intelligence and how someone learns overtime.
IQ tests measure intelligence and not "perceived intelligence." It is not a subjective test.
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pm For example if you're around kids for any length of time you'll realize that some are just more curious than others. Curiosity itself is just a behavioral disposition, yet increased levels of curiosity will lead kids to learn about more things, think more about how things work, etc which can lead to greater overall intelligence.
Yes of course. What's your point exactly???
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pm The point is that behavioral differences are possible between groups and these differences can result in perceived or actual differences in IQ overtime.


You are severely under estimating analysts ability of controlling for such variables.

carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pm There are good reasons to provide aid to groups that have been historically marginalized, that is because poverty and low educational levels are persistent conditions that are difficult for people to break out of.


There are good reasons to help people out of poverty and conditions that are difficult to break out of. Are you saying that some impoverished people deserve more help than others? If so you have a lot more explaining to do.
carnap wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pm Also the idea that employment decisions or anything else in our economy is really "merit based" is a fiction, the biggest factor in your success is the success of the family and nation you're born into.
??????? I wrote that it should be merit based.
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