Are we living in a simulation?

General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Jebus »

I don't recall this being discussed here previously. I just became interested in the theory after learning that some very smart people, such as Elon Musk and Neil deGrasse Tyson believe this to be the case. If this is true, the possibilities are mind boggling:

Heaven and Hell might actually be real (except it wouldn't be for eternity- only until someone turns off the simulation).

I might be the only character in the simulation, or it could be a more advanced simulation where billions of animals are all acting independently.

There could be billions of layers of simulation and people within our simulation might create new simulations which in turn might give birth to new simulations, each as real as our own.

Our simulation may be a reflection of reality, i.e. the idea of a universe with billions of galaxies came from reality, or reality may be something completely different than the universe as we know it.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3897
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Red »

I think it's BS. Some homeboy named Stephen Wolfram wrote a book "A New Kind of Science" about how life may be a simulation and the reception was fairly negative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kin ... #Reception

I'm not a scientist, but I don't see how there could be any evidence for this. I guess it's kind of like solipsism in some ways.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Jebus »

Red wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:18 pm I think it's BS.
Do you think it is possible that in a 1000 years we could create simulations where the characters believe they are as real as we believe we are real.

If your answer is yes, what makes you so sure that this has not already been done?
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:57 am
Diet: Ostrovegan
Location: The Matrix

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz »

It is possible but it is simpler to believe that this is reality than that it is a simulation created by real people, or even that it is a simulation created inside a simulation. Occam's razor is evidence for this not being a simulation.
esquizofrenico
Junior Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:54 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by esquizofrenico »

What we know is that if we are a simulation, we are a simulation of a universe much much more complex that ours. Despite all that was said in popular culture in the past, we know for certain that we will never be able to simulate a universe even remotely comparable to ours, just to simulate quantum effects in a 100 spin system requires a memory of size larger than the universe.

So, since we cannot know anything about the probability of a universe more complex than ours to exist, there is nothing that can be said about the probability of our universe being a simulation. The fact that we will be able to simulate universe with conscious beings in the future doesn't help us one bit, it would be an extrapolation to a region for which we have no data. The fact that there are universes with conscious life simpler than ours does not imply the existence of a universe more complex than ours with conscious life.

So, in general, it's an un-falsifiable statement that should be given no attention.
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3897
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Red »

Jebus wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:37 am Do you think it is possible that in a 1000 years we could create simulations where the characters believe they are as real as we believe we are real.

If your answer is yes, what makes you so sure that this has not already been done?
I don't see how this is relevant. Me thinking it can be done in 1000 means nothing.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Jebus »

esquizofrenico wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:03 am What we know is that if we are a simulation, we are a simulation of a universe much much more complex that ours. Despite all that was said in popular culture in the past, we know for certain that we will never be able to simulate a universe even remotely comparable to ours, just to simulate quantum effects in a 100 spin system requires a memory of size larger than the universe.
I don't know of anyone who has proposed that our simulation consists of the whole universe. It consists of our perception that we are part of a whole universe which would require significantly less computing power.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Jebus »

Red wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:34 amI don't see how this is relevant. Me thinking it can be done in 1000 means nothing.
It means a lot. If you think it can be done, why assume that it has never previously been done. And if it has previously been done, one can assume that there are already billions of simulations. So if there are a billion simulations and only one real universe, wouldn't it be ignorant to assume that we are the one in a billion that's not a simulation.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3897
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Red »

Jebus wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:32 pm
Red wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:34 amI don't see how this is relevant. Me thinking it can be done in 1000 means nothing.
It means a lot. If you think it can be done, why assume that it has never previously been done. And if it has previously been done, one can assume that there are already billions of simulations. So if there are a billion simulations and only one real universe, wouldn't it be ignorant to assume that we are the one in a billion that's not a simulation.
Did you read the link I provided?
A key tenet of NKS is that the simpler the system, the more likely a version of it will recur in a wide variety of more complicated contexts. Therefore, NKS argues that systematically exploring the space of simple programs will lead to a base of reusable knowledge. However, many scientists believe that of all possible parameters, only some actually occur in the universe. For instance, of all possible permutations of the symbols making up an equation, most will be essentially meaningless. NKS has also been criticized for asserting that the behavior of simple systems is somehow representative of all systems.
The Principle of computational equivalence has been criticized for being vague, unmathematical, and for not making directly verifiable predictions.[27] It has also been criticized for being contrary to the spirit of research in mathematical logic and computational complexity theory, which seek to make fine-grained distinctions between levels of computational sophistication, and for wrongly conflating different kinds of universality property.[27] Moreover, critics such as Ray Kurzweil have argued that it ignores the distinction between hardware and software; while two computers may be equivalent in power, it does not follow that any two programs they might run are also equivalent.[19] Others suggest it is little more than a rechristening of the Church–Turing thesis.[28]
In a 2002 review of NKS, the Nobel laureate and elementary particle physicist Steven Weinberg wrote, "Wolfram himself is a lapsed elementary particle physicist, and I suppose he can't resist trying to apply his experience with digital computer programs to the laws of nature. This has led him to the view (also considered in a 1981 paper by Richard Feynman) that nature is discrete rather than continuous. He suggests that space consists of a set of isolated points, like cells in a cellular automaton, and that even time flows in discrete steps. Following an idea of Edward Fredkin, he concludes that the universe itself would then be an automaton, like a giant computer. It's possible, but I can't see any motivation for these speculations, except that this is the sort of system that Wolfram and others have become used to in their work on computers. So might a carpenter, looking at the moon, suppose that it is made of wood."[38]
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are we living in a simulation?

Post by Jebus »

Red wrote: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:59 pmDid you read the link I provided?
I think the discussion would be easier if you summarized what you learned from this article relating specifically to what I wrote.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
Post Reply